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User Info: spweasel

spweasel
7 years ago#1
I am planning to add this to the general information sticky, but I want to get feedback for any corrections/changes first. Post 2 is where things get interesting.

RT, MP, and TP

To make a long story short, I was frustrated when my Ravness kept having 2 MP short of the 30 MP needed to use Boon of Swiftness on turn 2 unless I wasted time attacking a rock/teammate on turn 1. I knew just a little bit heavier equipment would slow her down enough, so I decided to figure out exactly how much extra was needed. This is the result of my research (some of this has already been documented, but some I haven't seen elsewhere).

RT and Turns

At the beginning of combat, each unit has their RT set equal to their WT. For each RT, the game checks to see if any status effects, etc. need to expire and then checks to see if any characters have an RT of 0 and need to take a turn. Once nothing else needs to be done during a given RT, the game will reduce the RT of all units by 1 and then begin another check.

Any unit with an RT of 0 is given a turn, with the game giving priority to characters starting with the rightmost corner of the battlefield and moving towards the upper corner, followed by the next row until all units with a 0 RT get a turn.

Each Turn's RT

As a unit takes its turn, a running total of RT from actions taken is kept that will become the unit's new RT once they end their turn. This new RT can be calculated as:

RT = WT + Action RT + Skill RT + Move RT

WT is simply the RT listed on the status screen outside of battle.

Action RT is either 0 if you took no action during the turn, the combined listed RT of all weapon attacks made that turn if you attacked/Double Attacked, or the RT of the Spell/Special/Item as listed on the Spell/Special/Item's description page.

Skill RT is either 0 if no Action Skill was used, or the RT listed in the Skill's description if one was used.

Move RT is a value that increases based on the number of tiles moved that turn. For each tile moved, a fixed amount of RT is added based on the unit's class. Changing elevation has no additional penalty.

User Info: spweasel

spweasel
7 years ago#2
List of Classes by Movement Cost

3 RT per Tile Moved:
Rogue
Familiar
Gryphon
Cockatrice

4 RT per Tile Moved:
Warrior
Archer
Rune Fencer
Knight
Terror Knight
Berserker
Swordmaster
Dragoon
Ninja
Fusilier
Beast Tamer
Hoplite
Juggernaut
All Dragons
All Golems
Octopus
Cyclops

5 RT per Tile Moved:
Wizard
Cleric
Warlock
Necromancer
Lich
Lord
Ranger
Priest
Princess
Dark Priest
Paladin
Astromancer
White Knight
Shaman
Wicce
Songstress
Buccaneer
Knight Commander
Matriarch

6 RT per Tile Moved:
Vartan

As an aside, this helps to explain why Vartan seems so much slower than he "should be" given his class RT - with 7 Move, you are looking at up to 42 extra RT each turn. Also, this confirms that Rogue is actually faster than Ninja or even Knight Commander if at least two tiles are moved each turn.

Quicken and Slow

When the Quicken status is applied, the unit's RT is immediately multiplied by 3/4 (i.e. reduced by 25%), and the new RT after a turn is taken is also multiplied by 3/4 for as long as the buff is active. All numbers are rounded down.

Slow does the same thing, only instead of multiplying by 3/4, the RT is multiplied by 5/4 (i.e. increased by 25%). Still round each multiplication down.

MP and TP recovery

Each unit has a hidden MP counter that keeps track of how many RT have passed. When this counter reaches 18, the unit's MP is increased by 2. Expand Mind lowers the number of RT needed for MP to increase by 2 for each EM level, meaning you only need 16/14/12/10 RT for the unit to gain 2 MP.

TP recovery works the same way. Every 20 RT, the character's TP is increased by 2. Each level of Tactician reduces the time needed by 3 RT per level, meaning that only 17/14 RT are needed for TP to increase.

Note that these counters do not reset just because a character's RT reached 0. Any RT accumulated towards the next 2 MP/TP carries over to the next turn.

Incapacitated/Stilled

Whenever a unit is Incapacitated or Stilled, their RT is immediately set to 200 and all non-Zombie statuses are removed. During this time, all MP and TP recovery is put on hold, but all RT accumulated towards the next MP/TP increase will remain until being revived. Basically, the closer a character was to gaining more MP/TP when killed, the less time needed to gain MP/TP when revived.

The RT isn't reset when revived, so if a character is revived on the same RT that they had their HP depleted, they will still have to wait 200 RT for their next turn.

User Info: spweasel

spweasel
7 years ago#3
Examples

Example 1

Shaman Olivya with 100 RT and Expand Mind IV moves 4 spaces on turn 1 and then uses an item with an RT modifier of +20.

Turn 1:
Since 100 RT have passed by the time that Olivya's first turn comes, she will have had her MP increased exactly 10 times (Expand Mind IV means her MP updates every 10 RT, and 100/10 = 10), and her TP increased 5 times (no Tactician means 20 RT for 2 TP).

Since MP/TP are gained 2 at a time, this means she has 20 MP and 10 TP on her first turn. Her RT after ending turn 1 is:

100 (her WT) + 20 (the item she used) + 4 (spaces) x 5 (Shaman movement cost)

= 140 RT

Turn 2:
Since 140 more RT have passed, she will gain MP 14 times and TP 7 times, for a total of 28 MP and 14 TP. Combined with what she had from turn 1, her total MP is 48 and her total TP is 24.

Example 2

Valkyrie Ravness has a WT of 93, Expand Mind II, and Tactician I. On the first turn, she moves 5 spaces and ends her turn.

Turn 1:
93 RT have already passed, which means her MP will have incremented 6 times (93/14 = 6 remainder 9), and her TP will have incremented 5 times (93/17 = 5 remainder 8). This is 12 MP and 10 TP. Her RT at the end of the turn is

93 (WT) + 5 (spaces) x 4 (Valkyrie movement cost)

= 113 RT

Turn 2:
Since we have 9 RT left over on the MP counter, it can just be added to the RT to figure out how much MP was gained.

(113 + 9) / 14 = 8 remainder 10 = 16 MP

Since she already had 12 MP from the first turn, this means she will have 28 MP... just short of Boon of Swiftness.

Her TP is

(113 + 8) / 17 = 7 remainder 2 = 14 TP

Total TP over 2 turns = 10 + 14 = 24 TP... Not enough for Conserve MP.

Example 3

How much WT does the above Ravness strategy need to hit 30 MP on turn 2?

30 MP = 15 increments
15 increments x 14 RT per increment = 210 RT

210 RT - 20 RT (what is added from turn 1's movement) = 190 RT

190 RT / 2 turns = 95 WT


To Do (maybe)

Status effect durations - I'm unlikely to bother due to their being so many of them, the possibility that different means of inflicting a status have different durations, etc.

Divine Knight movement cost - probably 4 per Tile based on trends, but I don't have access to any Divine Knights to check. If someone wants to check for me, that'd be great.

User Info: keepsinda

keepsinda
7 years ago#4

How does base RT of some unique characters comes into play each turn?

based on a FAQ, Ozma has a base RT of -15?

User Info: spweasel

spweasel
7 years ago#5
It is part of their WT. Since the RT listed on a character's out-of-combat status screen also includes the character bonus, it doesn't really need special consideration for this topic. Basically, WT is determined by:

WT = 50 + Class WT + Gear WT - Unique character WT Modifier

The Class WT part is what's listed on the class status screen, although why they don't just add the 50 to it is anyone's guess.

Practically speaking, this means that if you have Ozma and a generic in the same class with the same equipment, Ozma's turns will take 15 less RT to arrive due to her WT being 15 points lower.

User Info: AlekTrev006

AlekTrev006
7 years ago#6
Excellent research, SP. This is quite revealing....and makes me wonder why they nerfed Vartans so much ? I too often wondered...dang...hasn't Canopus' turn come around again yet ?


I would frequently have him fly 5 or 6 tiles...then shoot with his 2-handed Crossbows...and wonder why it seemed to take a long time before it was his turn again.


I am on the line with thinking it might actually be better, end-game, to have him as an Archer...not just for the less harsh RT-per-Movement stat, but so he has access to 2-handed Bows and Tremendous Shot // Double-Shot.


Extra movement with Swiftfoot-2 is less appealing if you are being hit with +42 RT just from flying somewhere, as you pointed out !

User Info: keepsinda

keepsinda
7 years ago#7

Well, if everyone has swiftfoot I or II and is maximing their movement (incl. the enemy) each turn until they come in contact with the enemy, then that movement RT is not that bad.

And besides, uniques has better base RT than most enemies / generic allies so that in turn somehow compensates for the movement RT.

In my play, i (or maybe should i say ALL of us) generally minimize movement when units are already in the fray, they only move to position themselves for attacking the enemy.

From what i have read, slower units or those with heavy RT, are the ones that benefit the MOST when it comes to the quicken buff. Is that right?

User Info: spweasel

spweasel
7 years ago#8
keepsinda posted...
From what i have read, slower units or those with heavy RT, are the ones that benefit the MOST when it comes to the quicken buff. Is that right?

Depends how you look at it. It reduces RT by 25% regardless of how fast you are, so if you are looking purely at how much RT is removed from the turn, the slower units gain more from the buff. If you are looking at a % damage increase from having more turns, the character's original RT doesn't matter.

Personally, I suggest starting by using Boon on the characters like Vartan who are likely to run off on their own and stay out of range after the first couple turns of combat. The biggest thing to remember, though, is to avoid Booning a mage that doesn't already have a respectable TP/MP surplus unless you like using MP items. The extra speed is often enough to make regular Meditates difficult, which means that you might actually lose damage output by using Boon on them.

User Info: Voidtemplar

Voidtemplar
7 years ago#9
Clearly this topic proves Rune Fencer Canopus is the best Canopus. >_>. Also, Rogue is amazing.

Great stuff ITT. I've actually researched most of this stuff and put it in a section in my postgame guide. However, when I tested movement RT, I only used a few classes from the 5 RT/move section because that's what I had deployed. It didn't occur to me that different classes have different RT/move. So that's great to know. It emphasizes more the importance of ranged weapons since you can conserve so much RT over time by not moving as many spaces. If you don't mind, I'd like to use that list and your examples since you've written it up nicely, with credit of course.

Regarding Boon, it effectively increases turns by 33%, so it takes roughly 3 turns to make up for the turn you lost by using Boon. That's about how long Boon lasts (sometimes less in my experience), so you really don't gain any turns. Really, it's delayed, with different timing, and it's rather 'transferring' them from one character to another. It's really only useful when you want to 'transfer' turns to a better unit, one with better positioning, or if you are out of range and have nothing better to do. 16 RT is cheap. I'm definitely be interested in status effect durations. I'd work on that a bit myself if/when I have time.

Though, I don't really think equipment choices are really variable enough to make going for certain WTs feasible. Most things around the same level tend to have the same weight. Generally I'd say boosting Augments/Int still takes priority.

Still, for Ravness Valk, I've got mine currently w/ Alluring set, Choker, Baldur Shield, Brynhildr, which is 97. Of course, I don't use Tactician right now, but it looks like I maybe should. It seems no Spear combo is heavy enough though. You'd have to replace some of the Alluring gear w/ Titania Mail or something. Or, kinda silly, but use a slower Valkyrie. >_>

That Shaman example is interesting, because you get 173 MP by turn 2 using a Magic Seed, while Level II Summons effectively cost 28 MP/turn (0.8*70 - 28). That's more than enough to launch them pretty much every turn without Meditate. Also, Nature's Wrath about every third turn.

Though personally I like using MP items and first turn Boon/Paradigm Shift (and later, freshly snapped Cursed Weapons), so the RTs get all weird. <_<
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User Info: spweasel

spweasel
7 years ago#10
Feel free to use this however you want. I'd appreciate if you want to figure out the different status effects; it seems a like too big a hassle for me to really want to bother with them (mostly because it's much more difficult to measure/control when a status effect wears off than when a turn comes up or MP increases).

Looking at the Boon turn as a lost turn is the wrong way of looking at it. Not only did you get your chance to move, very frequently killing something with your Valkyrie/Princess means that another unit ends up sitting on its thumbs for a turn, meaning that you end up losing a turn with that character instead.

Then again, I spam Boon like it's going out of style, but I also don't use items outside of Exorcism scrolls and Blessing Stones, so I think it's pretty clear that I use a much different playstyle than you do.

Outside of hitting X MP on turn 2 and possibly making sure you get ~14 TP per turn for a mage, I wouldn't worry too much about all this that much either. In the Ravness example, switching from Spear to Sword and Board is enough to get that extra 2 WT needed to get 30 MP on turn 2, which is probably worth doing at that point in the game (especially since attacking on turn 2 is very often not feasible).
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