Best .45-70 variant?

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User Info: asdfhj

4 months ago#1
So, is the SWC worth it despite the faster degradation rate? Is the HP better despite the DT increase, or the damage on, say, the Medicine stick will be so high that most enemies' DT wont matter?

User Info: redtide1962

4 months ago#2
All of the .45-70 Gov't guns are so strong that you will likely find higher damage output with .45-70 Gov't hollow-point rounds than either standard or SWC rounds until enemies have over 12 DT. Up until an enemy has 13 DT, the hollow-point rounds will deal more damage with guns like the Medicine Stick, because the base damage is so high that it takes a lot of DT to make that "triple DT penalty" outweigh the +75% bonus damage. At 15 DT (Deathclaws) you will deal almost exactly the same damage with SWC rounds as with hollow-point, so the difference is minimal. At 18+ DT (which is what Giant Radscorpions and some robots have), you would be better off with SWC in every way, since the weapon degradation is actually greater for using hollow-point rounds at this point (since you need to fire more shots to kill the same enemy). Standard rounds, however, are worse than hollow-point against all but maybe one non-boss enemy in the game, and that would be a Mr Gutsy, which has a ridiculous 25 DT.

So in my opinion, hp > swc > standard, but I'd convert all of my standard rounds to swc and prioritize using hollow-point against almost anything (until I'm running low on that type of ammo).

User Info: asdfhj

4 months ago#3
Alright, thanks man. I've been doing the right thing with my ammo then. However I need to stock up on HP now. I still need to understand how does the game work out the damage dealt. I need to understand the math better to get the most out of these situations.

User Info: red255

3 months ago#4
there is a ton of 45-70' HP rounds in lonesome road.

in this game I think the enemies don't generally have that much over 15 DT (get living anatomy perk to make sure)

so you are using the medicine stick.

the medicine stick does (with 100 guns) 78 damage or 97 with cowboy.

97 x 1.75 = 169 -45 =124 damage.
regular ammo is
97-15 = 82 damage
and SWC is 97x1.2-(15-6)= 107 damage.

but the SWC is craftable while the HP is not

the weapon degradation is a non issue if you take jury rigging or complete OWB or Dead money.

Jury rigging allows you to repair the gun with Varmint rifles or a hell of alot of rifle grip guns (single shotguns, caravan shotguns, cowboy repeaters etc)

If you complete OWB your sink facilities will get you a ton of materials for making weapon repair kits (except wrenches)

if you complete dead money you can purchase weapon repair kits with the vending machine, so no... weapon degradation is not really an issue.
If the next one is called, because of his MO, the underwear bomber, you'll know I'm on to something. Calvin Trillin June 16, 2006.

User Info: redtide1962

3 months ago#5
It isn't a comparison of whether to use hp or swc, or standard rounds or swc. In theory, you should not use standard rounds at all, except near the beginning of the game (where you might choose the cheap Brush gun over the Medicine Stick, for example).

That being said, hollow point rounds are strictly superior for this high-powered weapon except in cases of enemies having about 15 DT, which some high quality armored npcs and deathclaws have. In this case, SWC is a bit stronger, but not a lot.

However, since the real problem with hollow point rounds is their availability, at any time you can justify using SWC rounds, I think you absolutely should switch to them. The weapon durability is negligible even if it wasn't for other methods of maintaining your weapon, and all of your standard .45-70 Gov't should probably be converted to SWC.

I'd also like to say that Lonesome Road does not have sufficient hollow point .45-70 Gov't for general use, so don't expect to walk away with much of it, if any at all. The real place to get a lot of it is the "big" vendors, like the great khan armorer or quartermaster bardon. Not just casually playing through Lonesome Road.

EDIT: also red, your math is wrong for that calculation, but your point still stands. At 15 DT you will find (and this can be verified in-game with Living Anatomy against deathclaws) that hollow point rounds deal less than SWC. The ammo damage multiplier (from swc or hp rounds) is applied after the damage threshold and armor penetration, not before it. If it were, the hollow point rounds would likely be the strongest of all types of weapons against almost every enemy in the game, even at lower skill and weapon condition values.

User Info: red255

3 months ago#6
how much ammo is sufficent for general use?

I mean yeah you'll eventually run out of ammo. But I went into Honest hearts took christine's silenced sniper rifle, made like 1500 sniper rounds at the first ammo workbench (hand load)

only went thru like 100 rounds in the DLC.

I did vary my guns up alot but yeah. lets say 1500 rounds should be plenty, I'll see how much HP ammo lonesome road actually has.

this is including both the long mile and launching nukes are the legion to open up that area.
If the next one is called, because of his MO, the underwear bomber, you'll know I'm on to something. Calvin Trillin June 16, 2006.

User Info: redtide1962

3 months ago#7
You can also technically carry far more ammo in its broken-down form, so for going into a DLC you could, theoretically, take thousands of rounds and break most (if not all) of them down into lead, casings, primer, and powder. This almost triples the amount of ammo you can take with you into the DLC. You'll lose about 15-20% of your total ammo supply in doing this, but the total ammo is hardly as valuable as your precious carry weight.

This is, of course, far better to do with energy weapons.
All energy weapons can convert standard SEC/MFC/ECP to ECP.
You can wildly fire into the air with a gatling laser to generate weightless drained electron charge packs rapidly.
These can be converted at the drop of a hat into any type of energy weapon ammo that you desire at a workbench.
If you simply go to Legion Dropbox once, a single "trip" will generate about 1900-2300 weightless drained ECPs with this method. For free.

Because of this, it is possible to carry around a near-infinite amount of energy weapons ammo by stockpiling drained cells, and since the conversion rate is lossless between cell types, any energy weapons ammo you find during the DLC can effortlessly be converted into whatever type you are using, let alone upgraded farther into optimized or max charge cells/packs. It's a shame that Guns don't have this level of efficiency.

User Info: hoax123

3 months ago#8
Wait, its better to use hollow points against Deathclaws rather than Swc?
Lock her up!

User Info: redtide1962

3 months ago#9
No, it's better to use SWC, because the damage between the two types is almost equal against deathclaws.

HP does a *lot* more at 12 or less DT, to where you would absolutely notice the difference.
HP also does more at 13 and 14 DT, usually, with SWC almost equal at these two values regardless of critical hit rates.
SWC does slightly more at 15 DT (which is what deathclaws have).
SWC also does slightly more at anything over 15 DT, but only a select few enemies can have this much, let alone more than that.

Because of this, it doesn't matter which one you use at 13, 14, or even 15 DT, but hollow-point rounds are way more valuable to the player and SWC can be easily produced with stockpiled standard rounds, so you should absolutely use those.

User Info: jurbanik

3 months ago#10
While all of the above is correct math wise in reality it doesn't matter. Here's why.

Say HP does 180 damage while a standard round does 120. If the health of the target is 120 or less it is still one shot one kill. Ammo doesn't matter.

Taking into consideration head shots, critical's etc. the majority of things dies in one shot regardless of ammo. And those monsters that take 2 or 3 shots still take two or 3 shots regardless of ammo.

It is actually rare where one shot of SWC can kill something that 1 shot of HP can't or one shot of standard can't.

At the end of the day using SWC or HP over standard might result in the savings of a few hundred rounds over the course of a play through.

The Medicine Stick is simply that good regardless of the ammo type.
I said it in 2015 and will say it again. Trump will win the election.
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