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  3. Finally, a true analysis of the strength vs cunning rogue.

User Info: Dustin1280

Dustin1280
11 years ago#1

Yes, this is a copy paste, no none of this is my work, see the link for the original posting.

http://daforums.bioware.com/forums/viewtopic.html?topic=706563&forum=135&sp=45

Somethings to remember...


-Armor piercing is only improved by (CUN-10)/7
-Expose weakness is only damage (CUN-10)/3
-Only (base damage + modifier damage) is multiplied by crit modifier, NOT AP or Expose weakness or any other 'bonus damage'
-Combining the above three together, and this would mean that the damage outside of lethality CUN damage bonus would be minimal at best

Basic formula for backstab damage is this..

base dam * crit modifier - max (0, armor - ap) + expose weakness damage

And considering full sized weapons has higher base dam from having better attribute bonuses, it stands to reason that from a damage per backstab hit, full sized weapons have the advantage as this higher base dam would completely overshadow whatever damage the CUN rogue gets from higher AP and/or expose weakness.


But what about attack speed? This is an example way back then, but it should still stand since DEX isn't yet implemented on daggers (but the .85 modifier still is)

Longsword (7.7 base damage per hit, listed damage is in character screen with an offhand dagger, whose damage is not listed)
20 STR - 15.4 damage
23 STR - 16.5
Difference - 1.1

Dagger (4.4 base dam per hit)
20 STR - 10.7
23 STR - 11.6
Difference - 0.9

Mace (5.5 base dam per hit)
20 STR - 11.4
23 STR - 12.5
Difference - 1.1

Note this is the LISTED damage in the character screen, meaning this is already divided by some amount of time already. Meaning this is already equalized in terms of weapon speed, as this is damage over a certain amount of time arleady. And as you can see, longsword and even mace already has the advantage.

Even ignoring the base damage, just looking at the difference for each point of attribute would mean that full sized weapons would pull out even more. And we're not talking about Waraxes either, which scale even better per attribute point put to it.

Also note that this is with daggers receiving 100% STR bonus... when they patch it to be 50/50 STR/DEX, you're going to get EVEN LESS per point.

Which of course favours high STR/min DEX/min CUN rogues over min STR/decent DEX/decent CUN rogues no matter how you slice it. Full sized weapons, even in dual wield, have higher listed DPS and this DPS also scales better per point of attribute, so in no way dagger outdamages full size now or in the future.




An interesting thing to note is these are the same STR with the same weapons, but with NO offhand weapon

Longsword
20 STR - 18.8
23 STR - 20.8
Difference - 2.0

Dagger
20 STR - 17.1
23 STR - 19.2
Difference - 2.1

Mace
20 STR - 13.9
23 STR - 15.8
Difference - 1.9

So what happened here? Daggers who
scaledslower in dual wield now has the highest scaling?

So from this, we can conclude that dual wielding imposes an attack speed penalty for both hands, since I have NOT noticed any significant change in damage PER HIT. But considering this REALLY impacts daggers in the character creation screen, we can safely assume that this penalty to attack speed by dual wielding is an additive one, as it greatly reduced their listed DPS once you make them dual wield.

For example (numbers made up, but they illustrate the point), if dual wielding increases the time interval between attacks it by 0.5 seconds, a dagger with a base of 1.0 seconds per attack will now become 1.5, reducing DPS by 33%. A Longsword on the otherhand, if it has a time interval of 1.5 seconds, and dual wielding makes it 2.0, then it only has reduced DPS by 25%. Which, while not the exact reduction, is inline with how badly dual wielding daggers impacted the listed DPS in the character screen.

And for the record, the missing manual says momentum bonus is multiplicative (Georg mentions that its a straight 30% increase in DPS), so it should affect your DPS the same scale no matter what weapon you use or what wield ****you use.


In conclusion...

If you want max DPS, stick with the STR focused rogue. And for the love of the Maker, skip daggers because of how badly it gets nerfed if you dual wield it. We're not talking about how the STR rogue gets better attack rating as well, or the fact that the higher base damage of the weapon benefits backstabs much more than the high AP value the dagger has.

Besides, there are two waraxes that greatly benefit the rogue, and both have much better attribute bonuses. Granted one does not require attributes at all, so both types of rogue can use it, but the STR one benefits more because they'll have higher STR than the CUN rogue has CUN.

Of course, if you want lockpicking as well, Cunning is the way to go, as there are chests that needs both lvl 4 deft hands AND very high cunning in order to be picked. But for the purposes of DPS, its very clear that its inferior to a STR rogue wielding full sized weapons.


tl;dr
Depends on your party make-up. If you have ANOTHER rogue who can lockpick for you, then go ahead with a STR focused build. If not, its better you go for DEX/CUN despite of inferior DPS, because 22 CUN + lvl4 deft hands is not enough to pick all the chests you come across.

RIP: Canuklehead, Karma: 1369 // RIP: Gen_Lee_Enfield, Karma: 1731 //
RIP: Orlando of the Axe, Karma: 1642 // RIP nayr626 Karma: 4395 --They delivered!

User Info: Dustin1280

Dustin1280
11 years ago#2
Tagging on my gfaqs account, because I hate GS
RIP: Canuklehead, Karma: 1369 // RIP: Gen_Lee_Enfield, Karma: 1731 //
RIP: Orlando of the Axe, Karma: 1642 // RIP nayr626 Karma: 4395 --They delivered!

User Info: akcsfreak

akcsfreak
11 years ago#3
Just made and posted this in the PC forums... Seems to contradict the theorycraft in this thread but who knows, maybe the flaw is on my side.


Hey guys, I've been trying to figure out which is better and so I decided to test them both out. So here's my results

Parameters:
Lvl 14 rogue
Gear: Same on both: 1Long Sword + 1Dagger, Crit rate 25%
Skills: Lacerate, Coup De Grace, Evasion, DW Mastery, Whirlwind and of course their prereq's.
Enemy: Elite Abomination (making sure there were no debuffs or weapons on my allies)
Stats: Strength runs: 44+1 Str, 16+4 Cun. Cunning Runs: 16+1 Str, 44+4 Cun
3 Trials runs per mode, damage recorded averaged and truncated. All momentum'd auto attacks in back stab position.

Pre-Dexterity Hotfix:

Strength Run:
1.) Min: 29 Max: 44 Avg: 38.5
2.) Min: 31 Max: 50 Avg: 40.2
3.) Min: 27 Max: 46 Avg: 37.6
Total Avg: 38.7

Cunning Run:
1.) Min: 27 Max: 63 Avg: 49.7
2.) Min: 29 Max: 60 Avg: 46.5
3.) Min: 29 Max: 56 Avg: 41.9
Total Avg: 46.0

Dexterity Hotfixed
Strength Run:
1.) Min: 32 Max: 49 Avg: 40.0
2.) Min: 35 Max: 48 Avg: 38.0
3.) Min: 27 Max: 44 Avg: 37.2
Total Avg: 38.4

Cunning Run:
1.) Min: 25 Max: 57 Avg: 46.2
2.) Min: 29 Max: 60 Avg: 48.4
3.) Min: 33 Max: 63 Avg: 49.0
Total Avg: 47.8


As you can see... With equal items, clearly Cunning > Str. The question now becomes: is it better to go 100% cunning with Sword/Dagger + Dagger , or 31 Str for Sword + Sword.

I'll probably test it out when I get there, but i'm hesitant to try w/o a more reliable DPS tracker (The above is just me writing down every number above 15 >.>) If anyone can direct me to a method of in game recording the damage data it'd be greatly appreciated.

User Info: ggrissom

ggrissom
11 years ago#4
My head just asploded
PSN= MKEBrewCrew

User Info: xsubtownerx

xsubtownerx
11 years ago#5
This is all nice, but you have to take armor penetration in consideration also. Daggers do less damage, but they have higher armor penetration which is also a type of damage.

User Info: Liquid_capsule

Liquid_capsule
11 years ago#6
Depends on your party make-up. If you have ANOTHER rogue who can lockpick for you, then go ahead with a STR focused build. If not, its better you go for DEX/CUN despite of inferior DPS, because 22 CUN + lvl4 deft hands is not enough to pick all the chests you come across.

If you have 2 rouges you're going to have a hard time winning battles on hard, and whatever stats people come up for DPS, rouges are not tanks.

Also, you fail to mention that all of the Rogues talents are improved by Cunning, as cunning improves cooldown and effectiveness of all Rogue specific talents, it's not all about Damage per hit.

There is a reason the specialisations for rouges are, Assassin, Bard (Cunning based), and Duelist, Ranger (Strength based), both cunning and strength are equally effective, if you think Strength is so important, make a warrior.

User Info: The Deadpool

The Deadpool
11 years ago#7
Ranger is Strength based?
We are living in a world today where lemonade is made from artificial flavors and furniture polish is made from real lemons.

User Info: Liquid_capsule

Liquid_capsule
11 years ago#8
Rangers are strength and dexterity based, yes. I don't mention dexterity because no one seems to disagree about it merits. We are talking about Cunning/strength.

User Info: The Deadpool

The Deadpool
11 years ago#9
Trying to figure out how. Are the animal stats based on you character ST? The game makes no mention of it, hence my curiousity...
We are living in a world today where lemonade is made from artificial flavors and furniture polish is made from real lemons.

User Info: oldrpgmaster85

oldrpgmaster85
11 years ago#10
not to mention that lethality only causes damage to be determined by cunning. It adds nothing to the attack modifier. Unless I am wrong... which would be nice for any cunning based rouges.
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