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  2. Bayonetta
  3. The 3rd secret character is pretty awful to play as.

User Info: BareknuckleRoo

BareknuckleRoo
1 year ago#1
Little King Zero sucks. And not because of his whole dying in 2-3 hits thing.

Normally, Bayonetta and Jeanne have distinct grunts or phrases in each hit of their combo string, so in a hectic fight where you lose sight of them, you can use the audio cues to judge timing of the next hit in a combo. LKZ does not have distinct audio for his combos and with only the weapons swinging, it can be hard to tell at what point in a combo you're at or if you've accidentally mashed to PPP instead of just PP, etc.

LKZ also has a subtle animation when taunting, meaning you have to pay attention to when it ends (and thus a combo could drop). You can learn the timing of course, but it's helpful that Bayonetta have both a clear dance animation and voiced taunts for tapping and holding taunt as opposed to LKZ's unintelligible grunts.

The worst part about LKZ is how his built-in Infernal Communicator messes with one of the best accessories, Pulley's Butterfly. Instead of 5 butterflies you can only get 2 at a time. Worse, any time they're popped you have to first WAIT as you disable the Infernal Communicator, then reactivate both. This is by far the thing that makes the bonus fights vs Rodin or through Lost Chapter far more brutal to do. It takes a huge amount of time to disable then reapply butterflies vs Bayonetta/Jeanne who can simply instantly reapply butterflies when they pop.

User Info: GoukiAkujiki

GoukiAkujiki
1 year ago#2
I don’t even remember if I cleared a single Normal run with him. But as far as audio and visual cues, I don’t even notice those with the girls, the timing for the moves I frequently use are ingrained. I should play this sometime soon, it’s been a bit. I mostly just use Bayo when I play.

User Info: BareknuckleRoo

BareknuckleRoo
1 year ago#3
I never got around to running through the game as Zero so I'm currently doing that. Just smacked down "Balder Version 2", powerfarmed halos in that one alfheim in Chapter, then cut him up with Shuraba and SF.

Running through a 1st playthough with THE HALOS tuba-spinning things now is legitimately hilarious and cheaty.

It's really damn annoying dealing with the butterflies, and there's a serious temptation to forego Pulley's Butterfly, but it helps immensely with eating stray hits or nullifying damage from a failed parry attempt. Using Zero really solidifies just how much PB is the best accessory in the game both for offense and defense and how his changes seriously nerf things.

One thing I noticed is that Route 666 is actually easier with Zero in terms of visibility. He's a lot shorter than Bayo, so instead of the crappy camera angle hiding what you're driving towards, you can actually see properly in front of you. It still shocks me that Sega, known for amazing racers like Outrun 2SP, managed to mess up the camera angle in a minigame segment, making it hard to properly see where you're going.

User Info: GoukiAkujiki

GoukiAkujiki
1 year ago#4
If you don’t shoot you can see a little easier, but yeah I agree nonetheless.

Zero builds magic like crazy, I remember for WW Alfheims just basically spamming Tetsuzanku and almost always having enough to do it again, specifically with gold moon pearl.

Also, someone who’s mastered the game would consider butterflies one of the worst accessories, no? They’d have no use for it. I’m not such a person mind you, but it just makes sense.

Which chapter did you farm halos?

User Info: BareknuckleRoo

BareknuckleRoo
1 year ago#5
Chapter 2 is my halo farm chapter on a new game, using the second alfheim in the chapter (the one on the bridge), you can hit the required 10 million halos quite quickly and easily, and it helps that it's a fun alfheim just to mess around in: https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/228833-bayonetta/77567845

I'm pretty darn decent at the game (PP'd Lost Chapter) and my opinion hasn't changed that Pulley's Butterfly + Moon of Mahaa is the best general use accessory combo. Specific situations call for Eternal Testimony (toss it on when low on magic or when cheesing Gracious & Glorious with double Afterburner kick into Crow Within lock on punch feather spam), or for Pulley + Evil Harvest Rosary (it makes all the Double/Triple Jeanne fights in Lost Chapter far more manageable where parrying is far harder).

Pulley's Butterfly can soak more than one hit depending on how many butterflies the attack costs. Butterfly cost is not tied to the damage of the attack either - R's grab for instance normally takes off your entire health bar, but only costs 1 butterfly if it connects with PB. PB is easy to reapply, and when you have Moon equipped you can easily recover magic with parring, taunting and then attacking enraged enemies, etc. PB also makes parrying attempts a lot safer since there's no risk of blowing a medal rank if you fail and get hit, and parrying has a much sketchier window than dodge does, mostly because you have to press a direction to use it and some attacks that can technically be parried are a little weird about what direction registers a parry (Jeanne's upward and downward Wicked Weaves for instance). Magic drain is reduced if you have fewer butterflies currently active.

The three magic draining accessories (PB, Infernal Communicator, Sergei's Lover) all can have their costs managed too by clever use of taunting or Shuraba/PT's charge attack. The magic drain is paused whenever you are in a taunt animation or when you hold the punch button and are in the crouching charge animation (which means you can get back and charge up an attack without losing significant magic if you're using the swords).

Pulley's Butterfly can also be used to purposefully ignore attacks and power through them. Usually safer on single-hit attacks, but there's a lot of stuff you can use PB to ignore the attack and essentially get a hit in using invulnerability. I don't generally do this though since you get plenty of attack opportunities with Dodge/Panther Offset use.

PB is invaluable when playing NSIC where a stray hit can deal an exceptional amount of damage, or if you're going for a Pure Platinum attempt where one stray hit screws the run. There are many attacks in the game that can come out with little to no warning such as the final boss of Lost Chapter's three in a row weaves, R's rocket punches (that can appear below you), enemies attacking from offscreen, etc. The only limitation to PB is how good you are at managing the magic cost and keeping it active, which does take practice, but is generally far easier and more practical than trying to use something like Sergei's Lover effectively, which drains at an insane rate.

Also handy is even in NSIC where the cost is massively increased for the Bracelet of Time, if you lose PB in a fight and can't find a safe moment to reactivate it, you can quickly throw on PB+Bracelet, and use the bracelet while at the same time activating PB as soon as you exit the menu. Then go back and toss PB+Moon on. The bracelet safe activation costs about 4-6 small orbs to do but gives you a guaranteed window of activation to reapply PB.

User Info: GoukiAkujiki

GoukiAkujiki
1 year ago#6
Oh I know how good it is and I almost always have it equipped also, I was was just speaking objectively. If someone has literally mastered the game then they would never need it because they’d never get hit. Such a thing could be impossible but that’s just how theory crafting goes.

One downside (and probably the only one) to having butterflies on is that you can’t perfect parry or bat within.

User Info: BareknuckleRoo

BareknuckleRoo
1 year ago#7
If someone has literally mastered the game then they would never need it because they’d never get hit. Such a thing could be impossible but that’s just how theory crafting goes.


That's not so much "mastering" the game as assuming inhuman/frame-perfect reaction time and inputs. Even someone who can be said to have "mastered" a game in terms of having learned and memorized all knowledge of the game, attack timings, etc, can make mistakes and slip up with dodge timing now and then, human fallibility being what it is. By definition, someone who never makes mistakes and has frame-perfect inputs 100% of the time would not be considered human as per the definition of approaching the mastery of a game in a literal, realistic sense.

What you're actually asking is "Is Pulley's Butterfly the worst accessory or useful at all to a tool-assisted/frame-perfect playthrough?" which is a fair question, and in which case I suspect you're right that the answer is yes, it's the worst accessory in a practical sense because you could just dodge offset or parry at will.

Even then, I wouldn't say it's useless though. Its ability to tank hits might allow for speedkill shenanigans such as using it to safely pull off risky room sweeping attacks (tuba spin, fire claw spin, angel spear poledance). I use it in the Tower to the Truth chapter combined with a saved up angel spear to easily pure plat the Justice miniboss fight. Pulley's Butterfly, run up to its head, jump into the air and do a midair poledance which should kill the head before your PB shield runs out and it has the chance to do anything. From there it's an easy tentacle run to murder the shaft of the tentacle (a charged crow kick shield will instakill it if you ready it while on the tentacle run).
(edited 1 year ago)

User Info: GoukiAkujiki

GoukiAkujiki
1 year ago#8
Same thing, theory crafting and tas go hand in hand. I do also agree about its uses as a means to ignore attacks, even if dodging them wouldn’t be an issue. And remember, I use the accessory more than any other so I’m on board with your thoughts.

User Info: BareknuckleRoo

BareknuckleRoo
1 year ago#9
I don't recall suggesting theory crafting and tool-assisted runs don't benefit from one another.

The only point of contention was that your definition of "literal mastery" of a game is not a reasonable definition, as there are many people out there who can be said to have truly mastered games they play (SOF-WTN to Dodonpachi for instance), and that doesn't mean they suddenly develop frame perfect inputs with 0% error rates when they play which is what your definition suggests, i.e. that mastering the game suddenly makes you into some kind of infalliable machine, which isn't humanly realistic.

The problem with theory crafting is that it's worthless if it assumes unrealistic scenarios. You could also say something like "Someone who’s mastered the game would consider Bat Within one of the worst Special Techniques" and it'd be obviously ridiculous. Sure, someone doing tool-assistance or frame perfect, infalliable inputs could never have to worry about using it to help dodge, but that's clearly a ridiculous and inhumanly achievable scenario (this is ignoring the extra magic gain you get from perfect dodge/parries which could be abusable in such an inhuman scenario, but are subject to human error in timing if you try to use them on purpose in a real fight).
(edited 1 year ago)
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