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User Info: FF12GrandMaster

FF12GrandMaster
8 years ago#1
On my current game I have been trying to get Rush to Scholar but I lost the battle somewhere around INT 38....or so I thought. With Rush's STR at 47 and his INT at 41 he turned SCHOLAR with the following arts.

Combat

One Handed : Knee Splitter
Power Grip : Smash - Crossbreak II - Switchback

Mystics

Invocations : Spark IV - Wind Shear II - Double Time III - Caustic Blast
Evocations : Mystic Missile III - Flash Arrow
Remedies : Restore II - Refresh - Rejuvenate

Items

Herbs : Rest Herbs IV - Vivi Herb III - Life Powder II - Rest Tincture
Potions : Red Potion II - Blue Potion
Explosives : Flash Bomb II

I am now going to assign a level value to each art. Sorry if this is a bit long-winded but I've found that brief explanations in the wiki leave too much to speculation so I want to be clear about all this, even to the point of repetition if needs be.

Combat Art Levels

Knee Splitter, Rank C, Level 2
Smash, Rank C, Level 2
Crossbreak II, Rank B, Level 5
Switchback, Rank A, Level 9

Total Levels : 2 + 2 + 5 + 9 = 18

Mystic Art Levels

Spark IV, Rank C, Level 0
Wind Shear II, Rank B1, Level 3
Double Time III, Rank B2, Level 3
Caustic Blast, Rank A1, Level 6
Mystic Missile III, Rank C, Level 0
Flash Arrow, Rank B1, Level 3
Restore II, Rank C, Level 0
Refresh, Rank B1, Level 3
Rejuvenate, Rank B2 Level 3

Total Levels : 0 + 3 + 3 + 6 + 0 = 3 + 0 + 3 + 3 = 21

Item Arts

Rest Herb IV, Rank C, Level 0
Vivi Herb III, Rank B1, Level 3
Life Powder II, Rank B2, Level 4
Rest Tincture, Rank A1, Level 6
Red Potion II, Rank C, Level 0
Blue Potion, Rank B, Level 3

Total Levels : 0 + 3 + 4 + 6 + 0 + 3 = 16

User Info: FF12GrandMaster

FF12GrandMaster
8 years ago#2
Now let's see what the Wiki says about Significant Skills. I'll quote it here:

"A skill group is considered significant if the sum of its skills is higher than the average of the skill sums (ignoring the wield style group)

So let's look at each class. First Combat Arts. Now what is the sum of its skills? Well that's already been worked out at 18. So what is the average of the skill sums? The average ahs to be Total Skill Sums/Total Classes which is 55/3 = 18.33. As the total Combat Skill levels is 18 it is obviously not higher so it's not significant. Total Item Skills are only 16 so they aren't significant either. However, the total Mystic Skills are 21 which is higher than 18 so Mystics are significant. So now we have to look into the Mystics Class and see which class qualifies.

Now the thing to do is to see what is significant/balanced. The first thing to do here is to see if anything balances here. Remember, we are now looking at Higher or Balanced, NOT significance so it is done another way but still uses the level values from each class so let's get an average level for them. Bear with me here because this is still a bit complicated.

Total mystic levels have already been set at 21 and there are a total of 9 Skills that make that figure up (Spark IV - Wind Shear II - Double Time III - Caustic Blast - Mystic Missile III - Flash Arrow - Restore II - Refresh - Rejuvenate) so the average level is 21/9 = 2.3333 (recurring).

So what about Items? Well the total items level is 16 made up of 7 skills (Rest Herbs IV - Vivi Herb III - Life Powder II - Rest Tincture - Red Potion II - Blue Potion - Flash Bomb II) so the average level here is 16/7 = 2.2857.

So are they balanced? Well, for one to be higher than the other it has to be 10% higher so let's take a peek at the maths. The lowest total is 2.2857 now add 10% to that.

2.2857 * 1.1 = 2.5142 so for Mystics to be higher their average would have to be 2.5143 or more. However they are 2.2857 which is lower so as Mystics aren't 10%+ higher they must be balanced with Items.

Now to determine the class we look in the mystic section and see that all the classes there start at INT 41 which is what Rush has just reached in this example. At the time of change Rush was in a Combat Class and was an Adept Bludgeoner which is a Rank 3 Class. Now he is changing to Mystic he can only move into a Rank 4 class or higher which satisfies the conditions. So we are looking for Rank 4 or higher which has a Mystic/Item Balance. It's also useful to note which of the Mystic Arts he is using is the highest.

Invocations are 12 : (0 + 3 + 3 + 6 = Spark IV + Wind Shear II + Double Time II + Caustic Blast)
Evocations are 3 : (0 + 3 = Mystic Missile III + Flash Arrow)
Remedies are 6 : (0 + 3 + 3 = Restore + Refresh + Rejuvenate)

Invocations are the highest Mystic Art and they are also Significant as they are more than 10% higher than Remedies (12 in comparison to 6) so now we're ready to check the Rank 4 Mystic Classes.

First is Bishop as all the other classes before it are rank 3. Bishop requires no Mystic/Iem balance or Mystic Higher, but its first requirement is for Remedies to be highest. Well in this example Invocations are highest so Bishop is ruled out.

Next is Wizard which also requires no Mystic Higher/Balance, it just requires Psionics to be significant. Well Rush doesn't have Psionics yet so Wizard is ruled out.

User Info: FF12GrandMaster

FF12GrandMaster
8 years ago#3
The next class is Scholar which requires a Mystic/Item Balance which is what we have. The four classes above Scholar require (a) Highest Mystics as Hexes, (b) Highest Mystics of either Invocations or Evocations with at least 3 level 7 skills (Rush only has Level 6 Caustic Blast), (c) Significant Mystic Wards, or (d) to have All Arcana. Rush meets none of those 4 conditions so the search for his class ends at Scholar.

This is what actually happened too; Rush changed class and turned to Scholar from Adept Bludgeoner at INT 41.

I know the previous explanation has been seriously long but I couldn't put it any other way. There really isn't a TL;DR option for this. I just hope that it can help people to understand the class changes. Also, if the above is incorrect then I will parade naked through Times Square whistling "Dixie".

The RNG: A Guide to Treasure Manipulation
http://www.fftogether.com/guides/bea02f32e39b6ca2832d643eb333f21b.txt

User Info: FF12GrandMaster

FF12GrandMaster
8 years ago#4
The following pages will show where I got all the information from for the above example:

Classes

http://lastremnant.wikia.com/wiki/Classes

Developing Arts

http://lastremnant.wikia.com/wiki/Developing_Arts

Combat Arts

http://lastremnant.wikia.com/wiki/Combat_Arts

Mystic Arts

http://lastremnant.wikia.com/wiki/Mystic_Arts

Item Arts

http://lastremnant.wikia.com/wiki/Item_Arts
The RNG: A Guide to Treasure Manipulation
http://www.fftogether.com/guides/bea02f32e39b6ca2832d643eb333f21b.txt

User Info: Slayer7893

Slayer7893
8 years ago#5

This all does seem to add up (no pun intended). Thanks a ton for solving the confusion, I was scared of what can happen to my classes after reading about your latest ordeals. This has also helped me understand all of the math in class determination, which was a little too much for me to worry about priorly.

Also a suggestion, maybe you can make a wiki page, using this as an example, of how classes progress? or add onto the classes page with this example? Without good examples, the facts may be a little foggy and hard to understand. It sure was for me. : /

User Info: FF12GrandMaster

FF12GrandMaster
8 years ago#6
I need to be 100% certain that this is correct which means I'm gonna have to watch what happens to my characters. I have one I'm watching right now which is Caedmon. He's been in reserve increasing his skills but at present still has a silly class of Expert Freelancer whilst he has an STR of 54. It's quite interesting because his arts look like he's gonna be Gladiator when he gets on the field but I don't think he will. He has:

Quad Slice II & Four Winds II
Fury Blow II & Bonecrusher
Flash Strike II & Focus Strike

Sum of Combat Levels is 21
---------------------------------------

Mystic Missile IV, Flash Arrow III, Silencer III, Eclipse II & Snare Shot

Sum of Mystic Levels is 22
------------------------------------

Rest Herb III, Vivi Herb III, Life Powder II & Rest Tincture
Red Potion III, Blue Potion II, Yellow Potion III & Power Potion III

Sum of Item Levels is 20
----------------------------------

Average is (22+21+20)/3 = 21

None are significant and Mystic is higher. Mystics and Items are NOT balanced, mystics are greater. My opinion here is if things stay similar nothing will happen until Caedmon hits INT 41 where he could very well turn to something silly like Marksman. It's something I'll be watching with interest. In fact I may just make a save and go battling with Caedmon in a team and see what happens to his class.
The RNG: A Guide to Treasure Manipulation
http://www.fftogether.com/guides/bea02f32e39b6ca2832d643eb333f21b.txt

User Info: FF12GrandMaster

FF12GrandMaster
8 years ago#7
Well I took Caedmon out for a battle and went to the Operations Area No.5 in Numor Mine where there are some strong enemies, namely Skull Scavengers, Spiritwoods/Godwoods and Quien. I said I didn't expect much to happen with Caedmon and it didn't. He just moved to Adept Freelancer from Expert Freelancer. Now his STR is 55 and his INT is 32 so if his Item Arts were greater he would have changed to Master Guardian and if his Mystics were greater he would have gone to Expert Gladiator. Well, his mystics ARE greater so why didn't he change to Gladiator? IMO, it's because his Combat Arts aren't significant even though his STR easily is. I reckon the game is waiting for Combats, Mystics or Items to go significant before it makes a chamge. I'm going to carry on with this test and try to keep Caedmon away from Combat Arts and see how long I can hold him at Adept Freelancer.
The RNG: A Guide to Treasure Manipulation
http://www.fftogether.com/guides/bea02f32e39b6ca2832d643eb333f21b.txt

User Info: FF12GrandMaster

FF12GrandMaster
8 years ago#8
Ouch, Caedmon went Gladiator at the next STR up which is right for the Mystics being greater. Maybe the Arts aren't looked at as he wasn't changing from a combat class? He was already in a combat class as a Freelancer. I remember pprincess saying something about the Arts class only being taken into account when the character changes class completely which is exactly what happened in my earlier example with Rush changing to Scholar (Mystic class) from a Bludgeoner which is a Combat Class.

Sorry if I seem to be hogging the thread here but i'm just trying to get as much info over as I can whilst waiting for input from others. :o)
The RNG: A Guide to Treasure Manipulation
http://www.fftogether.com/guides/bea02f32e39b6ca2832d643eb333f21b.txt

User Info: sunzi

sunzi
8 years ago#9
I think adding it to the the Talk page or to your user page would be a better idea. Have a bunch of people contribute their observations? I'm tracking the progress on the JP wiki, although I haven't really seen much lately, and playing around with values in my files. Recently got Violet to go Bishop instead of Cavalier despite her STR being significant, which was exactly what I wanted. Once I'm done with this run, I'll be doing an Athlum only run, so there's fewer units to keep track of, and less complicated. One unit exempt from this is Aquarius since she starts as a Commander on the PC.

Was looking here: http://remnantpc.wikiwiki.jp/?%A5%AF%A5%E9%A5%B9%A5%C1%A5%A7%A5%F3%A5%B8%CA%D1%B9%B9%BE%F2%B7%EF%B8%A1%BE%DA%A5%ED%A5%B0#h14d62b3
And here: http://remnantpc.wikiwiki.jp/?%A5%AF%A5%E9%A5%B9%A5%C1%A5%A7%A5%F3%A5%B8%A4%CE%BE%F2%B7%EF%C8%BD%C4%EA
If I was reading it correctly, arts are taken into account only if going to a different class type. They're also seeing that it has to be 25% greater to be considered significant, not 10%. Of course, this might be a new limitation on the PC version. I don't see anything about class changes on the X360 JP wikis.

As for Caedmon, Snare Shot is Rank A-2, while RT and PP are A-1. Mystic is greater. He can't class change from Expert Freelancer since the first 2 (Rank 1~3) or 3 (Rank 4~6) tiers block class changes and can only upgrade.


I'll see what I can note down. I have an end of term project coming up that's going to suck up a ton of time.

User Info: chas2345

chas2345
8 years ago#10
there are a lot of theories on this topic. however, none are correct. in class changes it requires two things. a certain stat requirement and or the sum of all arts in your skill trees. meaning item arts, combat, mystic, and so forth. once you meet the class requirements, the class change occurs. got this info from a friend at square enix. any questions leave me a message.
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