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  3. Disappointed by Fang x Vanille. *spoilers*

User Info: Rasengan_Sana

6 years ago#1
I finally beat the first game last night, and I dunno about the other two games(I've bought XIII-2 but not Lightning Returns yet; I'm gonna start 2 later tonight), but I feel let down by Fang x Vanille so far.

Before I bought this I was told by multiple people that Fang and Vanille were the series' first canon gay couple. I think I remember someone mentioning that Fang was originally going to be a male and that sometime while they were making the game they decided to change the sex because they wanted to introduce a lesbian couple into the series.

So when I played the game I was just like.... where's the difference between their interactions and Lightning and Serah's? Why couldn't they just make it more direct, why would that be a problem? Say whatever you want about subtlety but I think that's an excuse, trying to look more sophisticated and understanding and really just being lazy and squeemish. It's not like I expected a sex scene, but they were so unafraid to get mushy with Snow x Serah(and I'm sorry but they are so overly sugary and boring). Why couldn't Fang and Vanille at least just share a kiss?

So...anyway, I was talking to a few mutuals on tumblr and one told me that it's confirmed they are not girlfriends and showed me a chart explaining all the characters' relationships with one another and for Fang and Vanille it said they have a relationship "just like sisters". I guess I shouldn't have gotten so hyped up before I played myself, but it's a bummer for me. Not the end of the world but I wanted to see something like this included in a serious manner in a FF. And I know I can ship them anyway regardless of whether they're canon, but Fang treats Vanille like she's a little baby and Vanille totally acts like one. Nevermind sister, Fang acts like Vanille's mom a lot of the time. It just turns me off. It could win me over if Vanille would mature a little bit in her personality, but I just wanted more from it!

Sorry, didn't mean to go on, but I just wanted to complain a bit(I already did enough to my friends I don't wanna annoy them anymore).

User Info: PoopMasterGoetz

6 years ago#2
Frankly, I would blame whoever told you that they're a "canon lesbian couple." Nothing in the game ever suggests that they have anything other than a sisterly or mother-daughter type of relationship. There's just that one scene where Fang and Vanille first reunite and they cry and hug and Fang looks under her skirt to check her brand. The gaming community sees this is as a lesbian thing because it's dominated by hetero guys who like to ship female-female relationships.
XBL tag: Triple Escape || PSN ID: Condragulations

User Info: Ladysoalluring

6 years ago#3
I have a sister, and she'd have me locked up if I tried to behave with her the way Fang and Vanille behave with each other ;P Actually, my mum would, or any of my female relatives, if I just casually invaded their privacy like that the way those two do xD Play LR, they are FFXIII's representation of Líf (Vanille) and Lífþrasir (Fang) and they fulfill that prophecy in LR (and if Square Enix didn't want people to think more of Fang/Vanille they would have removed all traces of these story/myth elements)

Anyway as far as I'm concerned LR ended with the couples clearly defined, and back with each other, where they belonged, Snow/Serah, Noel/Yuel, Fang/Vanille, etc but still left opened ended for people who find it "unpalatable" shall we say. Since some people will argue till they are blue in the face that a couple isn't a couple until there is something overt like them eating each other's face or they get married or have a child (bleh) or something, like they also do for Cloud/Aerith, Cloud/Tifa, Lloyd/Colette, etc, heck some people will keep arguing even if there is something like that x-x
Official "Vanille" of the Dissidia Duodecim boards
"To hate, to hurt, to destroy ... I couldn't do it" - Vanille

User Info: Rasengan_Sana

6 years ago#4
I have a sister, too. We are very close(we weren't when we were younger, but when I turned twelve my parents started homeschooling us and we started spending all our time together). I won't go into too much detail, but a few years ago she got sick and almost died(she had to have a blood transfusion), and that just brought us even closer and really activated my maternal instincts. It made me appreciate her even more and since then I always worry about her and make sure she takes care of herself so that she doesn't get sick again. Maybe this makes me sound like a loser, but in real life she's my only friend, and the only member of my family I really get along with. We live together, and since neither of us want to get married, we probably always will.

My own relationship with my sister affects the way I see this, same as you. I guess the degree of affection characters can express for each other without it having to have romantic connotations is different for me than other people because of how close we are. I mean, I would look at my little sister's leg without a second thought if my sis had a mark that was the only indicator of how long she had left before turning into a monster. It's her leg, not her genitals.

Since I haven't played the whole series yet I will keep an open mind, but a lot would have to change with the way their relationship is presented to convince me, especially since they've already said their relationship is sisterly.

User Info: Ladysoalluring

6 years ago#5
I am sorry to hear about your sister, I hope things life as it is stays stable for you two, and doesn't get that bad again.

I can see where you are coming from but people can still live together and be a couple/in a relationship without anything overt like kissing or sex, not currently in a relationship but I've been without sex for two~ years now and I think I'll continue to survive fine without it xD, I also have an asexual best friend.


As your sister and you have no plans to marry, then I guess you've chosen each other over everybody else, that is literally a thing in this game that Fang and Vanille chose to spend eternity together, above and to the extent of all others. That is just incomprehensible to people that don't have/share a bond like that I guess.

As you mention Snow/Serah, now that is overt and sugary, but despite this I feel that Fang and Vanille was definitely the better well done relationship of the two, personally I didn't need it to have a face eating moment or be as blatant/sugary as S/S but yeah.

I can say it really bothers me, that if SE had just left Fang's sex as it was along with the Ragnarok and Lif/Lifthrasir story that Vanille and Fang story have, with Fang being a male and Vanille being the original main character as was originally planned, people wouldn't have had as much issues with F/V as they do =/

As far as Square Enix go they might describe them as "like sisters" but they have also never flat out denied the romantic angle either, saying it is open to interpretation.
Official "Vanille" of the Dissidia Duodecim boards
"To hate, to hurt, to destroy ... I couldn't do it" - Vanille

User Info: Rasengan_Sana

6 years ago#6
Thank you. She's fine now, and she should stay that way as long as she doesn't neglect herself. :)

I wonder if SE had kept Fang a man if they would have described his relationship with Vanille as "brother and sister". If the game was exactly the same but just with Fang as a man and they called them "just like brother and sister", I would have thought that SE was telling me their relationship was platonic, not romantic, just like I do with our final versions.

Final Fantasy likes to draw on different mythologies, but they take bits and pieces. It's like Kain Highwind; he represents the biblical figure Cain and Cecil is his Abel, but not every aspect of their story matches Cain and Abel's.

I'm tempted to go and spoil it since I probably won't get to play the last game for a while and it's fun to talk about, buuuuut I'll wait. >.< But I looked up Lif & Lifthrasir, and I'm guessing that Fang and Vanille don't repopulate the world by having babies together, so there's no reason to think that representing Lif & Lifthrasir is an indication of a romantic relationship, because they're obviously drawing on only parts of the Ragnarok tale.

Would you mind linking me to where they said the nature of Fang and Vanille's relationship was left open to interpretation? I don't doubt you, but I always ask for links.

User Info: Iightningz

6 years ago#7
I really don't think it's technically "confirmed" canon. I wouldn't say they are that. However, Fang's gender was changed to female so his(her) bond with Vanille would not undermine Snow/Serah's - it kind of communicates to me Square Enix believes romantic love is harder to see between two females. Yet they didn't change the story of them much as I know, leading to some pretty far-fetched symbolism that implies they are a couple. As a result Square probably doesn't know what to do about Fanille themselves.

They wouldn't flat out deny it either, they would break the hearts of fans.
Lightning Collection: http://imgur.com/a/ibrsD#0
Tumblr: http://kaiho-sha.tumblr.com/

User Info: judge-sal

6 years ago#8
meh. They grew up together in an orphanage, and formed a sisterly bond. Fang wanted to be a l'Cie, and Vanille tagged along. Fang basically protected her the whole time, and became Ragnarok alone because Vanille was too scared.

After awakening in the events of XIII, Fang parts ways with Vanille to protect her yet again. When they finally meet again Fang rushes to her to hug her and make sure her mark isnt going to make her a Cieth soon.

To me, Fang is like an older sister for Vanille, considering their situation and how Fang pulled through for Vanille when they were l'Cie the first time.

The lesbian stuff came from the fanboys/girls who like to sexualize things and make weird/unofficial pairings to satisfy their needs.

Although, I'd also consider what lightningz said. Fang originally was a male character so there could be a chance that the two were originally a couple, but as it is in the final version, theyre more foster sisters than anything.
You've nerve, but nerve only goes so far.

User Info: Ladysoalluring

6 years ago#9
"The lesbian stuff came from the fanboys/girls who like to sexualize things and make weird/unofficial pairings to satisfy their needs."


That's offensive, and not why some of us like the pairing.

Some of us like really like the strength of the relationship between them and their soul mate like bond.

Also Vanille and Fang protect each other equally, Vanille protects Fang as much as Fang protects her :) it was Vanille who shielded Fang with her own body while a helpless knocked down Fang lay on the floor about the be killed by Anima and the priests. Fang put herself forward as L'Cie candidate because she didn't want Anima/the priests to pick Vanille from the pool, so she could get into the temple and try to do something about the situation. Since she attacked Anima, if Vanille hadn't followed her she might have died. It was Vanille's plea to spare her and to make both of them L'Cie that stayed the hands of Anima/the priests.

Also beautiful post lightningz :)
Official "Vanille" of the Dissidia Duodecim boards
"To hate, to hurt, to destroy ... I couldn't do it" - Vanille

User Info: Rasengan_Sana

6 years ago#10
It'd be pretty neat to be able to read FFXIII's ultimanias. I wonder how much detail they go into about the early development stages? Like in VII, Cloud was originally going to look pretty much just like Angeal, Aerith was going to be in love with Sephiroth, Vincent was going to be a flirty horror researcher or something(weird), and Yuffie was originally a 25 year-old bounty hunter who'd appear in different costumes. Some of it's pretty far out. :/

I listened to an interview yesterday with Rachel Robinson(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hu7PabVIpjQ it's around 36: 15), and she said she's always viewed their relationship as sisters and best friends, like friends are the family you choose, but also said she thinks they left room to speculate about it. I don't know what kind of direction they gave her or just left it up to her to interpret her own lines, but yeah. I didn't see any interviews with Vanille's VA, so I don't know what her thoughts are on her character(if anyone can link me to something with her, I'd appreciate it).

I still hope SE will be willing to write a less ambiguous same-sex relationship into a future title. I think them including an option for same-sex marriage in FF XIV is a good step. I don't necessarily think Fang and Vanille's relationship is completely platonic. I just can't shake the feeling that if they intend for them to be seen as potential lovers, that it's a cop-out to call them sisters. I don't want to be cynical about it, but it just feels like they didn't want to risk portraying them unequivocally as lovers. But the sooner they just go for it(like have them kiss, or something to make it absolutely clear. they can do it with Serah and Snow, so come on), the sooner people will just stop making a big deal about what isn't a big deal.
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