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User Info: DTaeKim

DTaeKim
11 years ago#11
During Adder's powers, I should add.
Dum spiro, spero.
As long as I breathe, I hope.

User Info: silentbobus

silentbobus
11 years ago#12
And another thing...

If defense is really preferable to offense... why do the CO powers give you more for defense than offense? Also, are those power rankings taking into consideration COs that are at level 0, level 10, or somewhere inbetween?

For Grimm, if you really thought the -20% defense was that bad, you could always counter it with the defensive set of CO powers. So he would be 130/100 overall.

If you wanted to take a normal 100/100 CO and give them all the offensive powers, they would still be only 113/100

User Info: sarcasteak

sarcasteak
11 years ago#13
>>If defense is really preferable to offense... why do the CO powers give you more for defense than offense?
You're judging the importance of defense and offense by basing it on the percentages of those CO skills? Essentially, the amount of HP your unit has determines how much offense and defense it has in damage calculation; the more HP your units can lose due to shoddy defense, the less effective it becomes both offensively and defensively. We can speculate or number crunch with damage calculators all we want as to why defensive CO skill boosts are higher than the offensive ones, but ultimately they have little bearing on the issue of the trade-off: units that can deliver more powerful punch but die easily do not outlast units with balanced stats over the course of a battle.


>>Also, are those power rankings taking into consideration COs that are at level 0, level 10, or somewhere inbetween?
Competitive play does not take into consideration of CO skills for a good reason--we cannot agree on which skills should be allowed under what situations. The CO skills are fine in single-player for hastening the annihilation of AI opponents, but for handicap purposes in competitive play, we will end up arguing all day whether your +12 Direct Defense warrants my 1-movement cost across forest terrain.


>>For Grimm, if you really thought the -20% defense was that bad, you could always counter it with the defensive set of CO powers. So he would be 130/100 overall.

If you wanted to take a normal 100/100 CO and give them all the offensive powers, they would still be only 113/100

No, the normal CO would choose something like Fire Sale, Pathfinder, Luck, and Soul of Hachi because he/she does not need to compensate for inferior defense. =\
"I've tweaked it so it can fire every single day! It's sooo dangerous!!!" - Lash

User Info: darkfire9430

darkfire9430
11 years ago#14
silentbobus, I really suggest playing against other humans before you attempt to assess competitive play. It's really an entirely different, far more strategic game. Trying to analyze competitive play having only played against the CPU is like trying to analyze Mexican food having only eaten at Taco Bell.

User Info: silentbobus

silentbobus
11 years ago#15
I think that you might as well evaluate the COs with 4 power slots and all powers available to them. Certain powers seem natural to certain COs. Like Olaf having the power that increases his attack on snowy days, and Colin having the two powers that decrease unit cost.

So let's just evaluate the COs as if they've picked the best powers for themselves.

User Info: DTaeKim

DTaeKim
11 years ago#16
Defense is greater than offense because the damage equation includes innate defense (Von Bolt and Kanbei) AND terrain defense (all other COs). Von Bolt and Kanbei are two of the best COs because of that innate defense bonus.

We're not considering forces, because they break the game.

And 130% offense means nothing when Kanbei can have 140% defense by himself, and 150% defense when paired with another CO.
Dum spiro, spero.
As long as I breathe, I hope.

User Info: darkfire9430

darkfire9430
11 years ago#17
... except that as sarcasteak pointed out, no one uses power slots in competitive play. It's a huge pain in the ass to argue about which powers render which character broken (for instance, Kanbei with all defensive boosts is damn near unkillable). It's much easier to avoid using any power slots, avoid using the Broken Trio, and just start playing.

So what's the point of considering slots in CO tiers, when their use is entirely academic?

User Info: Mortimer11

Mortimer11
11 years ago#18
Ready for a nub post? Anyone want to explain in depth why each CO is in their respective teir? For the most part I understand why but I found myself enjoying the smartass description of why Grit was broken.
I love a girl named Rose.

User Info: DTaeKim

DTaeKim
11 years ago#19
Hachi - Broken because of his powers. Barter gives 50% deployment costs, and it ensures you have twice as many units as the opponent. Two Neotanks for the price of one? Two Md. Tanks for the price of one? For 7000G, Hachi can deploy a Tank, Artillery, AND Infantry while the opponent can only deploy one Tank (or none if you are Kanbei). Merchant Union makes it exponentially worse because it allows Hachi to have reinforcements ready on the front. His D2D of 90% deployment costs for no weaknesses is simply the icing on the cake. Hachi's powers are the reason he is placed on the broken tier.

Colin - 80% deployment costs D2D means he has a constant economic advantage over the opponent (unless it is Hachi). 90/100 units is a weakness, but it still ensures 2HKOs for the important match-ups, which is the most important factor. Gold Rush increases his economic advantage even further, and Power of Money turns his economic advantages into a powerful firepower bonus. Most Colin players will use Gold Rush most of the time, and Power of Money to deliver the finishing blow. Colin will bury you D2D and with his COP, which is why he merits broken-status.

Grit - It is commonly cited that 1 Infantry + 1 Artillery will defeat one Tank, which is a safe assumption. This Infantry + Artillery combination has forced most map makers to adjust the creation of their maps. Grit has the best indirect units in the game thanks to his +1 range, and his powers increase that advantage. Grit is the only CO who can keep a Battleship at bay with his Rockets regularly (Jake can do the same, but only with his COP). His strength has decreased with AWDS because of the decreased emphasis on D2Ds, but when powers come more frequently, you cannot argue with Rocket-like Artillery and increased firepower. Since Grit will always win the indirect battle and the Infantry + Artillery combination is a common tactic, Grit merits broken status. He may not be as powerful as Hachi or Colin, but he will demolish the other COs, except for Javier (maybe).
Dum spiro, spero.
As long as I breathe, I hope.

User Info: DTaeKim

DTaeKim
11 years ago#20
Kanbei - He is one of two COs with a D2D defense bonus, which allows his Infantry ridiculous staying power. Unless your name is Max, Jess, or Grimm, you will always deal 80% damage to Kanbei, and he counters with his 120% offense bonus. His weakness is considerable, but somewhat managable, given the tremendous staying power of his units. His COP increases his offensive prowess, but his SCOP is the killing blow. Kanbei's units are nigh invincible with the SCOP and not many COs will dare attack 160/160 units with 200% counterattacks. If it weren't for the fact the broken trio will tear Kanbei a new one everytime, Kanbei may merit broken status.

Sensei - Right now, there is some debate over Sensei's status. Initially, he was placed in the high tier, but battles with an online AWDS simulator indicates Sensei is at least top tier, if not broken. Sensei has one of the best capture phases in the game thanks to his transport bonus, but the rest of his D2D can be considered unexceptional, if solid. Then you have his powers. Sensei is the only CO who spawns units for free, and to everyone's nightmare, it's Infantry and Mechs. In AW2, he didn't use his powers enough to cause significant concern (but he was a regular ban regardless). In AWDS, his powers come with ridiculous speed that the opponent is suffocated under the swarms of Infantry. Try playing Mial's Hope for an idea. Sensei may end up being promoted to the broken tier in time.

Kindle - A solid CO choice on many maps, she merits top tier status because of Urban Blight. in the words of one AW player, she punishes you for doing what you need to do: build units. Couple the COP with the increased charge rates and 140/130 stats on properties (including the terrain bonus), Kindle will remain in the top tier. High Society, like Power of Money, is the icing on top. As powerful as Kindle is, she will never ascend to the broken status thanks to the broken trio, but she can handle a good amount of COs below her.
Dum spiro, spero.
As long as I breathe, I hope.
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