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User Info: AlyceAmbrosia

AlyceAmbrosia
1 year ago#1
This should be a fun way to drum up some discussion on the gods of Mardias: how would you categorize their individual moral alignment, and why? Here's my take:

Lawful Good: Mirsa
He's proved himself to be a strong leader with genuine care for the future of humanity. The chivalrous culture of The Knight's Dominion, inherited from his and Eugen's example, is a testament to his values. Galahad appears to be a faithful follower of Mirsa, and is himself a prime example of lawful good.

Neutral Good: Nisa
She seems to me a fairly passive god, more interested in protecting her people than engaging in or encouraging conflict, although she does directly ask the protagonist to put a stop to Saruin. Her associated school of magic (terrology) consists mostly of defensive spells like shields, camouflage, and stuns, which is in line with how she chooses to protect the Taralians and Terranites underground rather than engage Saruin directly.

Chaotic Good: Elore
There's much evidence that Elore is very manipulative, tricking others into guarding Fatestones for hundreds of years, and using others to fight Saruin for him. I find it difficult to believe him when he says that he "will respect the fate (Mardias) chooses for itself," and not intervene in the fight against Saruin. I'm more inclined to believe Saruin when he suggests that Elore is a puppet-master manipulating the protagonist. There's little doubt that Elore wants the best outcome for humanity, but the means by which he pursues that outcome are shady.

Lawful Neutral: Amut and Eres
It's a little tough to justify a position for these two since they don't get a lot of screentime in-game, but some evidence of lawful behaviour includes Amut's history of assisting St. Agnes with defeating the vampires, and Eres watching over Claudia. On the other hand, Amut shows no visible reaction to the corruption in her temple, and Eres takes a decidedly neutral stance on the role of the gods in mortals' lives when she says to Cyril, "all we can do is to watch over them." I'm not entirely sure lawful neutral is the best fitting position for them, but it's not the worst either.

True Neutral: Cyril
He's reclusive and takes no direct action in the story. His line, "fate is decided by mortals, not gods," makes his neutral stance clear.

Chaotic Neutral: Yucomb
Yucomb takes no action against objectionable pirate activity at sea and is worshipped by people from all walks of life. He does, however, take ruthless revenge against the brothers who stole his statues (daughters), going so far as to create a storm which wrecks a ship with many innocent passengers onboard. After the third brother admits his wrongdoing and returns the statue, Yucomb blesses him with "more fish than ever." His actions can be merciless or kind, and are determined based on how humans behave towards him personally rather than how they behave towards one another.

User Info: AlyceAmbrosia

AlyceAmbrosia
1 year ago#2
Lawful Evil: Death
Perhaps the most morally ambiguous god in my opinion, Death's intentions are somewhat unclear. It's obvious that's he's lawful, as he faithfully upholds the integrity of the cycle of life and death, including taking a firm stance against Soulgutter. However, it's hard to say whether he's truly evil. The best evidence in favour of him being evil is his cooperation with Saruin's minion in delivering a soul from Purgatory to Darque's body, although I have a nagging suspicion that delivering Aldora's soul may have been intentional. After you defeat Death in battle, he says, "If you are strong enough to defeat me, you should be able to imprison Saruin once again." This may simply be an objective statement about the strength of the party, but it also seems to imply he has no qualms with Saruin being imprisoned. I suspect that Death may be so obliged to his duty as guardian of the Netherworld that he would rather Saruin not disrupt the cycle of life and death. If that's true, then I would place him as lawful neutral, but I recognize the amount of conjecture in that train of thought. Historically, he fought alongside Saruin and is known as an evil god, so lawful evil is a more objective position. I'm interested to hear what others think about Death.

Neutral Evil: Schirach
Life as a human has made her more sympathetic to mortal woes. She now seems interested only in maintaining control over darkness, and not in taking sides with or against Saruin. Honestly, I have a hard time understanding her, especially due to the duality of Schiele and Schirach. It seems like she's afraid of her own power, which is why she asks you to fight her, though I'm not sure exactly what she's afraid will happen. If anyone has some insight I'd love to hear it.

Chaotic Evil: Saruin
This should be no surprise. He's consumed by his emotions and strives for power and destruction. I wish there was more depth to his character. Although one could speculate about how his motivations relate to Saiva and the circumstances of his birth, that isn't really explored at all so he comes off as one-dimensional.

User Info: Feathermind

Feathermind
1 year ago#3
Schirach lacks the confidence that she can control her own power, and fears the level of destruction it would cause. This is not without merit; in the previous war, the god's powers ran so rampant that they wiped out most life on the planet. This destruction so appalled Schirach that she would rather seal her memories and powers away than risk it happening again.

As for her inability to control it, it's likely her powers are tied to her emotional state. This aspect of emotion manifesting itself as power is shown with Saruin's minions. They are a part of him but also beings in their own right, personified aspects of negative emotion able to act on his behalf, with their own plans on how to spread strife and dissaray in the wake of his return. With Schirach's misery, pessimism and despair welling up to a boiling point, she may be fearful of a similar result. It may even already be starting to happen, as she presents herself in a fractured state with multiple identities talking to you at once.

You see this loss of emotional control when the Diamond is first removed and Schirach lashes out at Scorn. She immediately vanishes after the loss of control, perhaps embarrassed but concealing her vulnerability. This act of concealment is a key aspect of Schirach; it's the same concealment of pain and vulnerability her followers pray for. She ultimately finds that she can no longer hold it back herself however, and summons you to aid her in sealing it away, which for want of a good councelor involves the old RPG standby of violence solving everything.

User Info: snuhbort

snuhbort
1 year ago#4
I'm pretty sure that while Death may not exactly be on Team Elore, he's definitely on Team Saruin Had It Coming.

The guy's totally cool with telling a roving band of adventurers who wander into his living room after having been sent there by Elore that Saruin's in the isthmus, and does nothing to prevent them from going there and wrecking him. Hell, he'll totally hook you up with some kickin' gear for a modest(?) fee of one of your party members.

And what's that? Oh, you need to go into Purgatory? No problemo, adventurinos! I'll just unlock the door for you. I'm totally sure you're not going to use anything you find in there to whack my li'l brother. Who I totally sold out when you asked me where he was 10 minutes ago.

He also never attacks unless you attack first, even though he's supposed to be the big bad eldest bro of the trio of evil and you kinda-sorta just waltzed right into the dude's house at the request of the Minstrel, who's supposed to be sorta his arch-nemesis.

Plus the whole Aldora thing looks a lot like it's a form of malicious compliance to Saruin's cult asking him for help. It's been a while since I last watched that cutscene but I recall he's pretty cryptic when he tells the minion dude that he'll help out, and then he just straight up sends the soul of Mirsa's #1 fan to possess the head of the Assassin's Guild. Like, he's just screwing with Saruin at that point. He ain't even being subtle about it.

Yeah, I'm 100% on the "Death's a pretty cool guy once you get to know him" train.

User Info: AlekTrev006

AlekTrev006
1 year ago#5
snuhbort posted...
I'm pretty sure that while Death may not exactly be on Team Elore, he's definitely on Team Saruin Had It Coming.

The guy's totally cool with telling a roving band of adventurers who wander into his living room after having been sent there by Elore that Saruin's in the isthmus, and does nothing to prevent them from going there and wrecking him. Hell, he'll totally hook you up with some kickin' gear for a modest(?) fee of one of your party members.

And what's that? Oh, you need to go into Purgatory? No problemo, adventurinos! I'll just unlock the door for you. I'm totally sure you're not going to use anything you find in there to whack my li'l brother. Who I totally sold out when you asked me where he was 10 minutes ago.

He also never attacks unless you attack first, even though he's supposed to be the big bad eldest bro of the trio of evil and you kinda-sorta just waltzed right into the dude's house at the request of the Minstrel, who's supposed to be sorta his arch-nemesis.

Plus the whole Aldora thing looks a lot like it's a form of malicious compliance to Saruin's cult asking him for help. It's been a while since I last watched that cutscene but I recall he's pretty cryptic when he tells the minion dude that he'll help out, and then he just straight up sends the soul of Mirsa's #1 fan to possess the head of the Assassin's Guild. Like, he's just screwing with Saruin at that point. He ain't even being subtle about it.

Yeah, I'm 100% on the "Death's a pretty cool guy once you get to know him" train


Just saw this thread - great one ! Also - kind of laughed as reading this Snuh - good stuff :-)

I'm much the same view of Death - he seems to have more a devotion to Law / Order / his Duty - and less to "wanton chaos and slaughter" (that is more Saruin's domain).

I still remember the night I finally challenged him in battle - wooo - what an incredible and dramatic music score that played. One of my favorite themes. And the fight was legit hard - as Death assails you with tons of Life Point destroying attacks. I nearly lost a few fighters for good - as I recall it. Great character though.

User Info: fawka

fawka
11 months ago#6
snuhbort posted...
I'm pretty sure that while Death may not exactly be on Team Elore, he's definitely on Team Saruin Had It Coming.

The guy's totally cool with telling a roving band of adventurers who wander into his living room after having been sent there by Elore that Saruin's in the isthmus, and does nothing to prevent them from going there and wrecking him. Hell, he'll totally hook you up with some kickin' gear for a modest(?) fee of one of your party members.

And what's that? Oh, you need to go into Purgatory? No problemo, adventurinos! I'll just unlock the door for you. I'm totally sure you're not going to use anything you find in there to whack my li'l brother. Who I totally sold out when you asked me where he was 10 minutes ago.

He also never attacks unless you attack first, even though he's supposed to be the big bad eldest bro of the trio of evil and you kinda-sorta just waltzed right into the dude's house at the request of the Minstrel, who's supposed to be sorta his arch-nemesis.

Plus the whole Aldora thing looks a lot like it's a form of malicious compliance to Saruin's cult asking him for help. It's been a while since I last watched that cutscene but I recall he's pretty cryptic when he tells the minion dude that he'll help out, and then he just straight up sends the soul of Mirsa's #1 fan to possess the head of the Assassin's Guild. Like, he's just screwing with Saruin at that point. He ain't even being subtle about it.

Yeah, I'm 100% on the "Death's a pretty cool guy once you get to know him" train.
thats awesome! and damn funny!!!

"If you are strong enough to defeat me, you should be able to imprison Saruin once again." - even Death thinks Saruin is a weakass

User Info: Ryan914

Ryan914
6 months ago#7
If you wish to know why Elore chooses to not touch things or seems manipulative is because he was originally a god created by Saiva (The very same sword found during the Trials of Elore is what was used to birth him from Saiva's finger) during the first war of the gods in an attempt to turn the tide from a stalemate to defeat Marda. He also saw the destruction caused by the first war of the Gods and the fact that all of them left Mardias after it except Elore and Nisa.

With Schirach, I can explain her whole situation. Elore created Amut and Eres to weaken her before Elore gave her the Diamond of Light (Yes, that is why there are 2 moons in Mardias, they were initially created to weaken her enough JUST to negotiate with her). It was to neutralize her powers but also served as a type of punishment for her warmongering ways, to live as a resident in the world she warred in and witness the lives of those who live in it to their end. As cruel as it was, do note she waged a serious war against Elore and the other gods as well as the other mortals of Mardias themselves. Over time she developed a second personality by living among mortals, even fearing removing the ring as if it felt she would cease to be if it was removed. It's a tragic punishment, but one she deserved for what she has done, to understand the very sorrow she inflicted upon those who lived in Mardias. She feared losing control of her power due to the time being so desynchronized from her own existence but also feared non-existence too, she wouldn't know if even she would be around if her own powers ran too amok potentially destroying herself as well, similar situation to Oblivion/Destroyer from RS3. (The Bard's Tale: Novelization of events of RS in the Ultimania can give more of a notion)

Death only cares about the cycle of transmigration, even though he fought in the past against Elore, he understood his role as the facilitator of reincarnation after his defeat and accepted it. Aldora chose not to abandon her memories so she could be reborn into Mardias, Death believed that having her in the body of Darque would force her to abandon them, he only went along with Scorn's plan because it coincided with his own plans of maintaining that cycle. Sort of why at the end of the game, he turns on Saruin because he knows that Saruin's release would wind up throwing the whole system he worked so hard to maintain into disarray with the mass influx of souls and potential extinction which means no new life can be incarnated again via birth. He was hedging a very large gamble on trying to break the will of a soul who has been so stubborn for a millennia.

User Info: Kantolin

Kantolin
4 weeks ago#8
I always felt that a really big part of why Death isn't fond of Saruin is because the latter screwed their sister. I need to review that part of the story, though, as I thought that the reason Schiele had such a rough life (Mostly the 'tragic' parts of everyone she's met, not the ending part) was because of Saruin. It's been awhile, though, so I'm questioning my memory on the subject. (RS:MS for switch maybe?)

I can definitely see Death as lawful neutral, though. Or at least, if he was LE before, he may have mellowed a bit in the interim.

There are actually a surprising number of entities in the setting who have the opinion, "Okay I don't like Elore, but man is Saruin being a jerk and I can see you're particularly focused on stopping the latter, main character."

Of course, Yucomb does show that the gods in general are okay with collateral damage when it comes to solving their problems, heh.
Sic Gloria Transit Del Mundi
WOOHOO I beat 10 Fatestone Saruin on July 22nd! Woohoo!
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