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User Info: Garquill

Garquill
5 years ago#1
somewhat interested in seeing if I can speedrun nightfall with a new character within a few hours by abusing hero flagging and builds
http://i.imgur.com/WRuboBm.jpg
"Education is what remains after one has forgotten everything he learned in school." ~ A. Einstein

User Info: ellis123

ellis123
5 years ago#2
You probably could beat it in sub 20, at least, and I wouldn't be surprised at a sub ~10 if you were extremely optimal. The biggest hurdles would probably be all of the side stuffs, as I remember Istan quite vividly for just how many Quests that place had (for four Missions that place took forever to leave...). That, of course, assumes you're not going to get someone to just immediately get you to Consulate Docks to skip the whole shebang for the most part (assuming no other human interaction beyond that, you'd still really need to get 10 for M.O.X. ... who should carry pretty hard for a bit).

How would you go about doing the run if you were going to go through it? I'm sort of assuming a mostly "anything goes" sort of ordeal where you can buy a build straight up (Pikin is fast to get to, and the Sunspear skills are pretty OP) + use any of the Heroes that you want to with whatever build you want to + can abuse already obtained gear. The only restriction really being no human interaction.
"A shouted order to do something of dubious morality with an unpredictable outcome? Thweeet!"
My FC is in my profile.

User Info: Garquill

Garquill
5 years ago#3
You're the first person who isn't telling me to just have someone run me around or that they'll run me
thank you

I was hoping there were more sequence breaks in nightfall but it seems you have to actually do almost everything

ellis123 posted...
you'd still really need to get 10 for M.O.X. ... who should carry pretty hard for a bit).

confused what's going on here
http://i.imgur.com/WRuboBm.jpg
"Education is what remains after one has forgotten everything he learned in school." ~ A. Einstein

User Info: ellis123

ellis123
5 years ago#4
Garquill posted...
You're the first person who isn't telling me to just have someone run me around or that they'll run methank you

Lol, screw that. If I was going to do a challenge I'd want to have it be somewhat legit, and having someone else run you through crap is not the way to go about it. About the only things that are a bit grey for that kind of thing are the stuffs that I was talking about: Do you allow for stuffs from your previous characters? Do you allow yourself to deck out your heroes with all of the stuffs you'd gotten previously? Etc. Stuffs like that are sort of the "challenge factors" that really determine just how hardcore you wanted to go.

Garquill posted...
I was hoping there were more sequence breaks in nightfall but it seems you have to actually do almost everything

Unfortunately that's really the only one that's really there. I want to say you can cheese a couple of quests, but you really can't skip any of the missions (sans route choices, such as Rilohn Refuge vs. Pogahn Passage, obviously). Nightfall was a bit more extreme than Factions about preventing skipping, and Factions already made it pretty hard to skip most anything (though you could definitely shave off quite a bit of time if you did all of the skips) and had an absolutely crazy amount of quests on top of its missions.

Garquill posted...
confused what's going on here

Unless I'm misremembering something (been bloody ages since I've played this game...) you need level 10 to unlock M.O.X.'s quest. M.O.X. comes at level 20, and when combined with the "being a Dervish" he's pretty brutal up until the game expects you to be level 18-20 (he'd be able to carry you pretty hard through Docks if you abused him properly). However, if you do the Docks skip you'd not be level 10 so you'd still have to dank about in Istan until you got level 10.

If a speed run of this game were to be done it would definitely involve you abusing M.O.X. for just how fast he becomes and for how crazy powerful he is when you can first obtain him, so that's where that all comes from. Make sense?
"A shouted order to do something of dubious morality with an unpredictable outcome? Thweeet!"
My FC is in my profile.

User Info: Garquill

Garquill
5 years ago#5
I don't think I ever recruited MOX a 2nd time, hah. For some reason I assumed you had to a the massive quest chain for him. It's been so many years.

He's definitely interesting here.

Do you remember that Wurm farming run for Sunspear points at Remains of Sahlahja? Teams would all go Wurm and rampage south for a few minutes. I was thinking of running there and farming levels with scrolls in at some point once the key heroes are acquired. It might not be worth it. Or it might enable large time-saves. Or there might be a better xp run somewhere else. Or standard levels will be sufficient.


ellis123 posted...
Do you allow for stuffs from your previous characters? Do you allow yourself to deck out your heroes with all of the stuffs you'd gotten previously?

I'm inclined to say no because it becomes costly and is usually against the spirit of most speedrun categories, but really, this speedrun already breaks some traditions (unlocked skills for heroes). Grandfathering weapons may be needed though... some strategies may not be possible if they can't kill quick enough. But sometimes randomness is exciting in speedruns. The only problem is that adaptations in this game will usually just reverse to traditional playstyles instead of the more interesting hero flagging and micro abuse.
http://i.imgur.com/WRuboBm.jpg
"Education is what remains after one has forgotten everything he learned in school." ~ A. Einstein

User Info: Garquill

Garquill
5 years ago#6
actually there's NG+ speedruns so maybe why not grandfather items if it makes it more interesting.
http://i.imgur.com/WRuboBm.jpg
"Education is what remains after one has forgotten everything he learned in school." ~ A. Einstein

User Info: ellis123

ellis123
5 years ago#7
Garquill posted...
I don't think I ever recruited MOX a 2nd time, hah. For some reason I assumed you had to a the massive quest chain for him. It's been so many years.

He's definitely interesting here.

Oh god, lol. No you're able to get him pretty shortly after you first gain access to him. You just wouldn't be doing the quest afterwards, which is a pretty irrelevant thing seeing as we're talking about a speedrun.

Garquill posted...
Do you remember that Wurm farming run for Sunspear points at Remains of Sahlahja? Teams would all go Wurm and rampage south for a few minutes. I was thinking of running there and farming levels with scrolls in at some point once the key heroes are acquired. It might not be worth it. Or it might enable large time-saves. Or there might be a better xp run somewhere else. Or standard levels will be sufficient.

Standard levels would be fine. The only time that leveling is a major thing is leading up to getting M.O.X. Once you have him you really don't care that much about your overall level (within reason, obviously). By the time you'd even make it over there you'd probably have hit >16 and wouldn't really get much from trying to level from any actual grinding spot. Grinding is faster, yes, but you'd still actually be wasting a ton of time doing it as you wouldn't actually be progressing yourself through the story.

Garquill posted...
I'm inclined to say no because it becomes costly and is usually against the spirit of most speedrun categories, but really, this speedrun already breaks some traditions (unlocked skills for heroes). Grandfathering weapons may be needed though... some strategies may not be possible if they can't kill quick enough. But sometimes randomness is exciting in speedruns. The only problem is that adaptations in this game will usually just reverse to traditional playstyles instead of the more interesting hero flagging and micro abuse.

Actually, you shouldn't have any issues with killing speed but more for the other factors. Having some +HP gear is actually pretty relevant for not dying at lower than expected levels. Just a couple of +10's/+30's really goes a long way in pushing your HP out of "dies instantly" range. M.O.X. by himself should be able to do enough damage against the higher leveled enemies while you're lower, so most of what you'd need to make sure of was that all of your other heroes would be doing enough support to prevent him/themselves from dying. And by the time his damage stopped being super good (Ha! He's a Dervish...) everyone else would have caught up enough that your overall dps would be pretty normal regardless of what you had really brought over.

Garquill posted...
actually there's NG+ speedruns so maybe why not grandfather items if it makes it more interesting.

Hard to really say. I'd find not bringing things over more interesting, but I don't know if it's a really feasible thing. The biggest problem is the Istan > Kourna transition, as the game expects you to be a higher level than you would be + you wouldn't have all of your heroes with you. Most enemy groups would be pretty harsh, and it would be pretty hard to do anything normally (you'd have to cheese all of it).
"A shouted order to do something of dubious morality with an unpredictable outcome? Thweeet!"
My FC is in my profile.

User Info: Garquill

Garquill
5 years ago#8
I just realized I can do elite missions instead of all of Nightfall if this becomes not-fun. Routing and micromanaging UW or FoW could be interesting but could also be too easy.

I just remembered /bonus weapons. They can be tremendously useful.

My concern about leveling is based on the idea that I want to fight as little as possible and run past everything or micromanage heroes to go off and solo/duo/trio something and thus xp isn't earned across all heroes unless I don't understand how they gain xp. However this is less of a problem now that I realized I can recruit more high level heroes than M.O.X.

I can grab some EotN heroes relatively quick at level 10. Ogden and Vekk should be quick. Gwen requires a walk to the EotN outpost. Xandra is maybe viable at Gunnar's. She's Round 2 in the tournament, but I have to beat Round 1 and her at level 10 and there's only a 1/7th chance for her to show up. Should be possible, and it could help a lot to have a 20Rt right away. Zenmai isn't very time consuming but might not be worth it.

Another thing is it's possible to start a Canthan character for this. This would allow assassin as a main character and could be faster leveling. Might be negated by the entree-to-nightfall quest. Maybe not. Enables Zenmai easily.

My character's profession has been a hard one. Originally I thought monk because a human can do pretty good raw and intelligent healing in group fights especially with their pve skill. They can be really good for splits and some solo'ing too. Increased consistency for surviving and preventing getting completely screwed. However you can already get 3 hero monks easily...

Elementalist can be really interesting for raw damage and solo'ing or splitting. And healing and basically anything. Starting with this.

Mesmer is in a similar spot to ele. Probably Me/E

Assassin if starting in Cantha could be really good. Trades blows with the above 2 for splitting and solo'ing.

Dervish could be similar to the above 3. I actually barely know them after the dervish overhaul.

Paragon can let you get very brave in group fights. Not entirely unviable for their pve skill to be used as a secondary. Probably not good.
http://i.imgur.com/WRuboBm.jpg
"Education is what remains after one has forgotten everything he learned in school." ~ A. Einstein

User Info: ellis123

ellis123
5 years ago#9
Garquill posted...
My concern about leveling is based on the idea that I want to fight as little as possible and run past everything or micromanage heroes to go off and solo/duo/trio something and thus xp isn't earned across all heroes unless I don't understand how they gain xp. However this is less of a problem now that I realized I can recruit more high level heroes than M.O.X.

Without going into EotN you aren't going to get that many. You've got Zhed, Margrid/MoW, Goren/Norgu, and Morgahn pre-Realm of Torment (which is when you can get all of the ones you missed... though only the ones I mentioned/Razah come at a higher level if I remember correctly). And because they come at such sporadic times you really aren't going to gain much from switching. Tahlkora, for instance, comes at level 12 and by the time you're starting to hit any difficulty from the game itself she'll be pretty close to 20 and her level won't really be the big issue for you.

But yeah, as you said, if you go to EotN you can get Ogdin + Vekk without any real time loss, and Gwen would be quite possible to get to pretty fast. If you're going to go as fast as possible, though, I'm pretty sure the rest are too far out to be worth it. Xandra is just too RNG, and if you really want to be hyper optimal you'd get her + reset your character if you didn't face her the first time but that's not really a consistent thing you'd go for in this sort of challenge. Gwen is also possibly too slow, but I believe you could pull it off without losing too much time and the time gain back is quite substantial. The only ones that I can guarantee as a pure time save, though, are Ogdin + Vekk. Coming at level 20 and being so fast to obtain makes them extremely valuable for a speed run and would let you springboard pretty hard.

Garquill posted...
Elementalist can be really interesting for raw damage and solo'ing or splitting. And healing and basically anything. Starting with this.

Mesmer is in a similar spot to ele. Probably Me/EAssassin if starting in Cantha could be really good. Trades blows with the above 2 for splitting and solo'ing.

Dervish could be similar to the above 3. I actually barely know them after the dervish overhaul.

Paragon can let you get very brave in group fights. Not entirely unviable for their pve skill to be used as a secondary. Probably not good.

Overall I'd say a ranged build would be optimal, as you're going to have a tough time surviving at lower levels even if you bring over a ton of good gear. So that really cuts out Assassin and Dervish, though Assassin really isn't an option for a Nightfall speed run (there's no way that you could get through Factions' starting Island fast enough to warrant it unless you got carried, as other than being the fastest to level 20 it doesn't really improve anything in comparison to starting in Nightfall itself.

Out of those, Mesmer feels like the strongest choice due to its ability to mitigate/damage at lower levels is a bit more potent. When you factor in PvE skills it, Paragon, and Necromancer stand out as being the most relevant. Especially seeing as your Sunspear Rank isn't exactly going to get all that high (like, I don't even know if you'd hit rank 3 after completing this speed run...). It's for that reason that Monk is definitely not much of an option. Seed of Life is pretty good, but not when you're going to cap it out at 3 seconds at the end of the game. :V
"A shouted order to do something of dubious morality with an unpredictable outcome? Thweeet!"
My FC is in my profile.

User Info: Garquill

Garquill
5 years ago#10
I expected the first mission to be much easier than it was

I need to run charges to the catapults to down the ships and clear every enemy on land. There's an annoying boss with natural regen that isn't killable without Koss spending a lot of time with a specialized build. I have him using a bow with no bow skills to kill mobs but switch him to sword on the boss. I can micro Gash to kill the boss a bit early. The 2 henches clear the right side fine.


> Make character

> QUEST: Skip tutorial
Run to town
Setup windows
/bonus and delete unused
Turn in quest (note: update with actual quest name)

> QUEST: Quiz the Recruits - 250xp in ~15-20 seconds
Setup Koss
QUEST: Never Fight Alone - 250xp in instant
Turn in Never Fight Alone
Turn in Quiz the Recruits

> MISSION: Chahbek Village
Flag Koss to clear left side & boss. Use Sword on group 1, Bow on 2, Sword on boss
Flag henchies to clear right side
Kill lone corsair to trigger the Sunspears to follow
Dash through middle and run the 2 charges
Flag right henchies to boss when done on right
Finish off middle mobs and head to boss
END

> DING lvl 3

> QUEST: First Spear Dehvad



The Boss tends to be the bottleneck. I might be able to find secondary profession skills for Koss that can kill him quicker. A strange amount of room for improvement on his build.
http://i.imgur.com/WRuboBm.jpg
"Education is what remains after one has forgotten everything he learned in school." ~ A. Einstein
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