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User Info: JiggyNinja

JiggyNinja
1 year ago#11
This really goes against "normal" intuition like Pokemon, where the battle system is roughly linear. Doubling a Pokemon's attack or the attack's base power will double the damage, and doubling the Defense will halve it.

With Defense in this game being a flat subtraction of damage instead of a factor in the divisor, the damage formula isn't linear anymore. Doubling the attack power might not do double damage, it might do less or more than that depending on how high the enemy Defense is.

I tend to play RPGs way too conservatively. I've played LK1 quite a lot, but when I first rented this game years ago I basically never used Z power. Now that I'm playing again (3x IR on Dolphin is beautiful), this post has led me to use Z power more and battles are so much more fun now. Stuff that might have been a slog before (like the room with 4 Mummies in Gromtull) are so much better with a few Z powered Ghouls or Mandragoras.

I'm basically Z powering almost everything with a cost of 1 or 2 stones, and even some of the 3 or 4 stone cards (like a Dragonoid or a strong Summon against a high Def monster) can be worth it. It's really helped fix my first impression that the battle system in this game is more of a drag than in LK1.

I never felt the need to use Treant in LK1, since I always preferred boosting my offense instead of my defense. However, a flat +30 to Defense sounds like it could gimp a lot of monsters attacks and could be really amazing. I find myself taking much more damage in this game than in LK1, especially against the Cultists.

How does Z power affect pure support monsters like Treant and Wizard?

User Info: JiggyNinja

JiggyNinja
1 year ago#12
I've just noticed something amazing that I didn't even see mentioned in the metagame topic. Cyclops gives the "pierce defense" effect to EVERY attack!

I was testing the Cyclops out with Whip Worm in Gromtull Desert, and I noticed it killing monsters a lot faster with Cyclops active than without, even compared to a Z-Effected Worm. Cyclops+Whip Worm was even more powerful than just a Z-Effected Worm by itself. I originally thought this might be because of instant death effects procing, until I actually paid attention to the damage numbers. Each hit from the Worm was doing more damage with the Cyclops.

I verified this explicitly by using Lizardman (18 attack) against a Mummy (13 Def). An unboosted Lizardman's attack does only 5 damage to a Mummy, but it does the full 18 with the Cyclops active! This is even more of a boost than Z-Effecting the Lizardman, which does only 14 damage. Z-Effect + Cyclops does 27 damage, as would be expected.

High defense monsters like the Mummy were a real slog when I played through the game without knowing this damage formula and understanding the implications of it. It's much less of a slog when you realize just how much of a difference, Z-Effecting and defense piercing can make against sturdy enemies like that.

Just to make things explicit, any attack that is described as "can penetrate any defense" or "pierces any defense" means that the enemy's Defense stat in treated as 0 in the formula. A non-exhaustive list of monsters with that effect are Flying Ray, Ghost Armor, Banshee, Mandragora, and Chaos Knight.

User Info: MooseEatsBear

MooseEatsBear
1 year ago#13
Z-Powered cards that are helpers with no attacks have their HP doubled and Lifespan doubled. Transform cards also get this, but they do not get the damage boost that independent, summon, and attack cards.

JiggyNinja posted...
I've just noticed something amazing that I didn't even see mentioned in the metagame topic. Cyclops gives the "pierce defense" effect to EVERY attack!


Oh s*** I had no idea that Cyclops did that. That's insane. I'll add it to the formula. And the list of cards that pierce defense are... (this is most likely the whole list)

Baba Yaga
Banshee
Behemoth (on water creatures)
Berserk Master
Capture Card
Chaos Knight
Chimera
Daidarapochi
Demon Fox
Fafnir
Flying Ray
Ghost Armor
Global Bust
Ice Golem
King Mandragora
Kitty Trap
Maelstrom
Mandra Dancer
Mandragora
Matador
MechLance 5L
Myconid
Phooka
Puppet Master
Sekmet
Siren
Sleipnir
Stone Head
Thanatos
Vouivre
Yin Yang

User Info: MooseEatsBear

MooseEatsBear
1 year ago#14
An interesting thing we noticed with damage numbers being one lower than they should be in fringe cases. The formula actually rounds down every single step of the way. So if you're doing Z Power, Dryad, Wizard, Coal Treant, Advantage on a Lizardman, it'll round down after z power, then round down after wizard, then round down after Dryad, then down after Treant, then after Advantage. That way sometimes your number will come out one lower than previously if your calculator doesn't ignore decimals.

User Info: MooseEatsBear

MooseEatsBear
1 year ago#15
Just to give the formula another final good push, here's the final formula written out.

(Attack*Z[1|1.5) * (Dryad|Salamander|Gnome|Undine[1|2]) - (Defence+Treant|Asparas[0|30]) * (Elemental[0.6|0.8|1.0|1.2|1.5]) * (Dark|Coal Treant [0.4|1])

Just as another note, remember that Larval Fly forces elemental to 1.0 and Beelzebub forces it to 1.5.

Here's a link to a reference table of the elemental advantages. Top one is normally, bottom is with Mad Reverser.
https://i.imgur.com/tGDg8e5.png

User Info: JiggyNinja

JiggyNinja
1 year ago#16
You forgot the Wizard/Apsaras part of the formula. Also, in LK1 the reducing effect of the elemental boosters (Dryad etc.) will affect your monsters as well. If LK2 is the same, you need to include the 0.5 factor in there.

I didn't know Mad Reverser affected Machine and Neutral too! Machines piss me off the most in the campaign, so clipping their offense and defense sounds great. Grinding Carbuncle > Trickster > Mad Reverser might be worth it. The cards than can insta-kill machines are too rare. Flayer Spawn is okay, but no good if they surround you. Nueh is great, but it's horrible to try and copy. How can it require almost twice as much EXP to copy as to transform into the White Tiger? That's madness. Pixie is just worthless.

I'm pretty sure the Cyclops can proc the instant death effect, since there's been a couple times I've seen it inflict more damage than the card would be capable of, like a Whip Worm doing more than 30 damage to an Earth monster. With 12 base power, Z-Effect+Advantage+defense pierce only adds up to 27 damage. I've seen it do the same to Machines too.

User Info: JiggyNinja

JiggyNinja
1 year ago#17
Also, some of those Summmons/Transforms/Independents might only pierce defense with one of their attacks. It would be good to list which one. I just tested out Fafnir last night so I know its wall attack is the one that pierces defense. The breath attack does not.

User Info: Donniedonz

Donniedonz
1 year ago#18
I'm really liking the discussion that's happening here! The damage tables and various calculations are extremely useful.

I didn't know that Cyclops had the added benefit of piercing defense. I did know that it has a chance of proccing Instant Death in addition to the more conventional Status Ailments (similarly to Trickster.)

MooseEatsBear posted...
And the list of cards that pierce defense are... (this is most likely the whole list)

Baba Yaga
Banshee
Behemoth (on water creatures)
Berserk Master
Capture Card
Chaos Knight
Chimera
Daidarapochi
Demon Fox
Fafnir
Flying Ray
Ghost Armor
Global Bust
Ice Golem
King Mandragora
Kitty Trap
Maelstrom
Mandra Dancer
Mandragora
Matador
MechLance 5L
Myconid
Phooka
Puppet Master
Sekmet
Siren
Sleipnir
Stone Head
Thanatos
Vouivre
Yin Yang


This is a very useful list. I think it's worth noting that Vouivre deals fixed damage, which is a bit different than piercing defense.
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