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User Info: Donniedonz

1 year ago#211
So now that I have another minute, let's talk about the Elemental Power Boost cards.

The Four Primary Element Boosters
- Salamander
- Undine
- Gnome
- Dryad

For years I've overlooked these and dismissed them as too niche to really be useful. After some testing, though, it turns out that their offensive modifier is way too huge to overlook.

I created what I call The Heavy Slam Test.
Using Manticore's Heavy Slam attack with different offensive multipliers, I recorded how the damage stacks up. This is performed against a maxed out Player Opponent in 2 Player mode (so with 300 health and 20 Defense). This can be performed with other cards and not exclusively Manticore, which I'll get into more later. I wanted a single hit, decently strong attack to work with. I wanted the exact numbers on how Apsaras compares to Salamander's Element Boost effect. Z-Power is also factored in.

~ ~ ~ Here's the study ~ ~ ~

Heavy Slam Base Attack Power: 58
Base Damage: 48

- Z-Power Damage: 82
- Apsaras Boosted Damage: 82

These are identical, and seem to be a x2 Power Multiplier. They can stack.

- Z-Power + Aparas Damage: 133

Now these are relatively impressive numbers. 58 power isn't anything extreme, it's actually on the lower end for heavy hitting Summons. Now let's look at Salamander's results.

- Salamander Boost Damage: 116

That's already an incredible difference, and can be stacked with either of the doublers.

- Z-Power Salamander Damage: 184
- Apsaras + Salamander Damage: 184

And finally, yes, they can all stack together.

- Apsaras + Salamander + Z-Power Damage: 286

I haven't been able to do further testing since this run, but the implications are obvious. While I can't provide you with raw data like the above example, I've incorporated the Element Boosters into my PvP play, and these absolutely do work.
Undine boosted Wraith just furthers the anti-Golden-Phoenix-metagame. Dryad with Z-powered Banshees and Whip Worm, Gnome for Sphinxes, Uroborus, Demon Swordsman... Earth Morays...?

Let's be sure to factor these into our work as we advance and push the metagame.
Floating Octahedral Shard

User Info: Zaelleaz

1 year ago#212
Yeah, I've always been in the not actually useful in a real battle boat in regards to the element boosters. I feel like anything that's added, something else would add more. Like.. dryads with Banshees would be the only consistent thing that nothing really replaces dryad in I suppose. I know if you have 1 undine and land a Z powered Phantom ship that's game. It OHKOs but.. to actually have it land, you'd have to say petrify them, which takes up another card and then successfully do so before the undine was killed for instance... and even if all that goes right, a doppleganger would do the same thing for cheaper with less chance for them to get out.. since it would be faster. A doppleganger wouldn't even need the undine so it looks like this:

Undine + basilisk + Z powered phantom ship = you win for 34 stones.. so it kinda has to work.
basilisk + doppleganger = you win for 13 stones.. get multiple tries with same card even.

I feel there's an instance like this for any use of any of the element boosters.. At least for now. I wouldn't be too surprised if I overlooked something and you find it. But yea, currently I'm still how you felt about them for years.

Last note: Sleiphnir always does 150 damage max.. tried it with undine.. no change. Phantom ship is highest damage in a card in all regards.

User Info: Zaelleaz

1 year ago#213
So.... actually ya know what.. I forgot a few instances.. so, maybe there is something I'm overlooking. Okay so.. my other counter to the element boosts was going to be something like:

Gnome + Uroburos = uroburos dealing 18 damage per hit for 11 stones.
Cyclops + Uroburos = win... for 11 stones.
BUT! Yeah, so if say Golden Phoenix "was" in play, Gnome would be vastly superior.

And the undine + wraith is actually a possible answer to Golden Phoenix.. this one I feel is a weaker option than gnome + uroburos but it still stands.. I'll be keeping an eye out for more possibilities.

Hopefully we can get some other opinions back into the topic besides our own. Would like to hear what others think.

User Info: Charles7439

1 year ago#214
Well, guess I'll chime in so you know someone's reading at least. I never really got to do multiplayer cause I was the only one of my friends that really played this game. But, keeping with the boosting cards...

Wizard, Apsaras, and Z effect are all a 1.5x boost. Dryad and co. are 2x. Elemental advantage is wither 1.5x or .5x. All that multiplies the base damage and then defense gets subtracted from the final total for the actual damage. I suppose anything short of an instant win doesn't do much compared with the more broken strats unless it can kill a Golden Phoenix quickly. With all those boosts a Golden Phoenix dies outright to a water card with at least 25 base attack. Dragon Knight, Marid, Charadrius, and Water Moray can all do that. If you're willing to settle for a bit less of a guarantee, Crystal Rose or Basilisk would deal 231 damage to it, so it'll either die or quickly burn itself out. For fire or earth cards, you'd need 38 base damage (76 for wood, neutral, and mech, but I guess you could try to use Beelzebub or something to bring that down) and I'd imagine that could open some options, but I wanted to do math and not look through the list again for something that might require too much support to actually be useful in this context.

Anyway, base damage values to one shot a player/Golden Phoenix at the various multipliers:
(2)(1.5) - 107/84
(2)(1.5)^2 - 72/56
(2)(1.5)^3 - 48/38
(2)(1.5)^4 - 32/25 (applicable to a player only if they have an element)
(1.5)^3 - 95/75
(1.5)^4 - 64/50
(1.5)^5 - 43/34 (not even sure this can happen)

And since I have no idea how viable most things are against something that might actually try to not get hit, I don't really have any suggestions on what to actually use to attack.
My username, PSN, and GT are, oddly enough, the exact same.
Deus Vult!

User Info: Zaelleaz

1 year ago#215
I'm actively testing these right now. I'm using Charadrius as my testing card and something is going on. So... wizard and apsaras aren't stacking. We sure they actually stack? Like.. i'm testing it as I type. anyway... Apsaras/ Wizard + Undine + Z power Charadrius is dealing 175 damage max. Dragon knight is dealing 225 damage.. almost OHKO's it.

KK, welp, it looks like Wraith or Dragon knight it is. Apsaras/ Wizard + Undine + Z powered Wraith successfully one shots Golden Phoenix. It's somewhat of a toss up on what to use given that Wraith is useless when getting rushed and Dragon Knight leaves about 2 sec of invulnerability on a full health Phoenix... guess Dragon Knight for me.. if phoenix has been out for even 2 sec, it's one shot. But this is the best you can hope for in terms of killing Bird and not get guaranteed punished using a summon.

I still feel this is unrealistic though being as you NEED 2 boosters, weapon card, take the time to set up both boosters, have them or you not die while doing so, and then still have to target the bird while they have been targeting you the whole time.. cause Phoenix is just play and go. One card. No set up. But if there was anything that could change my mind on whether or not there's a "viable" answer I suppose this is it. IF you do manage to set up, you basically one shot the player too so it stays relevant with the bird off the field too.

User Info: Donniedonz

1 year ago#216
I'm on mobile and out of the house, so I can't join in testing at this moment but am happy to jump in as far as discussion.

Wizard and Apsaras do not stack. I've always known that. I apologize if I came across as saying otherwise.

Next, just to clarify: you've tested Undine and Z-powered Wraith on Golden Phoenix specifically? (No additional Apsaras or Wizard present.) That's only two cards for set up, leaving the other two spots open for rush options: Uroborus, Banshee, Demon Lord, Sphinx, Astrobot, and Demon Swordsman for example.
Floating Octahedral Shard

User Info: Zaelleaz

1 year ago#217
Also.. I want to bring attention to it again... we can all play each other. Everyone here could do it. Dolphin emulator... netplay... it can be done.

User Info: Donniedonz

1 year ago#218
I have zero experience with dolphin or
emulation in general. It sounds awesome, I'd definitely be interested in setting it up.
Floating Octahedral Shard

User Info: Zaelleaz

1 year ago#219
AYYYY, no you're right. Yeah, so my bad on testing. Undine + Z powered Wraith kills Golden Phoenix. This I can definitely call an answer to Phoenix.

Undine + Z powered Wraith = 13 stones, 2 cards needed, time to set up one card, effect lasts until gone, access to 2 separate attacks, Heals you.

Golden Phoenix = 20 stones, 1 card needed, time to set up one card, effect lasts until gone, invincible till gone.

Yeah, other than requiring both cards in hand, it answers the bird and continues to lay down more pressure too. Only real concern I'd have left is that you "HAVE" to have something to answer a rushing opponent, but honestly, that's pretty standard since this is only 2 cards.

User Info: Zaelleaz

1 year ago#220
I'm not experienced with emulation either but my friend is. For real, if you or anyone else would actually like to play online, I'll try and set it up and when I figure it out I'll step by step it on here if needed.
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