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  3. Lost Kingdoms 2 Metagame Topic

User Info: Donniedonz

1 year ago#201
A lot of testing has been going on and I'm excited to report back. I want to do it in a consolidated way.

Two interesting things to note about 2 Player Mode is that it uses a slightly different engine from the standard 1 Player engine. This causes certain attacks to function differently.

~ Some cards are impacted negatively ~
Multihit cards such as Wraith, Garuda's Furious Sky attack, and Fafnir's Hell's Wall will hit less times than in 1 Player. You can go to Sacred Battle Arena to see see that these attacks will be more potent against the likes of Leod, Katie, Thalnos, and Helena in this engine. It isn't just the hitstun of Player Characters when these attacks hit less in PvP.

~ Some benefit from the transition to multiplayer ~
A few cards actually work better in 2 Player Mode's engine. So far I have identified Daidarapochi as a clear example of this. His "Earthquake!" attack can hit the opponent several times and decimate a life bar in multiplayer. But try using it otherwise, and it usually hits once or twice.

Succubus is unaffected and remains consistent across both engines. This is an important piece of information, both because this is an incredibly powerful offensive Summon and also because it shows us that some multihit attacks are unchanging among game modes.

2 Player Fair Play Rule Discussion

Should it be in effect?

The 2 Player Fair Play Rule has a banlist that includes obvious choices (Doppelganger, God of Destruction, Blue Dragon) and some more questionable ones, such as Acid Cloud. And don't get me wrong - I love Acid Cloud. It's potent, but very beatable. It shouldn't be banned. In fact, it keeps the metagame in check because it can mess with spinners.

Notably, Golden Phoenix isn't banned in any format of multiplayer. I have been testing this card a lot. It's good, but definitely beatable. While Wraith hits less in multiplayer, the rule of large monsters with high stagger points (such as Golden Phoenix or Behemoth) being more susceptible to multihit attacks will still apply, and with its Elemental Advantage a Z-powered Wraith is a Phoenix killer. It's true that the opponent must invest resources into killing the Phoenix, and it is surely a staple of top tier play.
Floating Octahedral Shard

User Info: Zaelleaz

1 year ago#202
Welp.. A lot of interesting things have come up. I never knew about the multi hit properties with multiplayer. I played around with it all a bit. After reading this when it was posted I made sure to call up the other person I can play this game with and we tested a decent amount more.

Firstly I start with some new (dumb) information on the game... there are speed tiers. Like actual differences in move-speed.

Character Speed tiers:
(fastest to slowest)
Difference of ~12% move speed between Stranger/Soldier and Helena

Move different characters at the same time and it becomes apparent. The hurt-boxes for characters don't differ either so even though soldier is bulky as all hell, he retains no disadvantage, though his movement itself isn't as smooth as stranger's.. or anyone's really.

Okay, now about 2 player fair play rule... should it be used? NOOOOOOO. Like.. none of the cards are actually busted honestly. Doppleganger is the cheesiest but far from bannable, God of Destruction isn't good, and Blue dragon while OP in # 1 is terrible in this game. Acid cloud is as you said and running bird is only OP with Time stop.. which I will always assume as banned. But anyways, in my opinion, there can be bans but definitely not by what the game sets up as bans... so, that's my vote. lol

Lastly will by my love/hate for golden phoenix. If everyone feels that Golden phoenix is more beatable then I'd like to just start carrying on the meta topic assuming it's not banned but probably for one more try, I really tried more testing on it.... it's too OP man. It's just too strong and needs to be banned for a healthy meta. Wraith... it takes 4 Z powered attacks to kill. What that means is that one wraith in hand isn't good enough so half your active cards have to be wraith of which costs you 4 more crystals to use to take out my Phoenix anyways. It's also 2 cards for one and if that wasn't bad enough, you have to commit to attacking it.. like.. no active playing person is going to sit by and not punish you. In fact wraith is pure range with NO threat to someone close. Like, what does a person with 2 wraiths in hand do against someone who just decides to rush them up close? Anyways, I still heavily feel like the phoenix is too high a tier on it's own like time stop combo but as I said, if I'm the only one that feels this then I'm fine with that too.

Oh, and I'm currently really testing out PVP in the limited cards per tier setting. Almost done setting up some deck types and my friend will eventually too. Hopefully this proves to be a lot of fun and opens up a lot of diverse strategies. Of course the Tier/ # of a card is subjective so I'll post how I go across things as I am shaping it up over the course of these probably next 2 weeks.

User Info: Donniedonz

1 year ago#203
Hey thanks for a movement speed chart. I did in fact know that the characters had slight differences in movement speed, but had never mapped it out as such. Really awesome work.

Generally the situation is assuming you would have one Z-powered Wraith and other offensive options at your disposal such as a Demon Swordsman strike. Also being covered at close range by staple cards such as Uroborus (Or Whip Worm), having Astrobots in your hand, or having independents such as Steel Skeletons to intercept the play.

Also, I would argue that Octobush may be the most important card in the game. It's absolutely incredible. I'll post more about that (and many other cards) in my upcoming large post.
Floating Octahedral Shard

User Info: Zaelleaz

1 year ago#204
Looking forward to it

User Info: Donniedonz

1 year ago#205
And I'm looking forward to hearing more about the limited-card-quantities format you're creating! Sounds promising.
Floating Octahedral Shard

User Info: Zaelleaz

1 year ago#206
So I'm not going to list why this time but will say I disagree that using that set up with wraith would make a difference and I'm saying this because this is a good thing. This means we have different ideas on how situations would play out. That being said.. could we maybe try for Netplay on dolphin emulator. If us users set up a netplay server on dolphin we could actually play each other. Look at netplay of super smash bros. melee for instance on youtube and you'll see how well it can run. But I would love if we could actually put our ideas in motion and test them against each other.

also, while not octobush.. I got an idea for a possible top deck that basically stalls/ counters for the win using Vampire bush lol. The deck is as follows:

Golden Phoenix: 7
Doppleganger: 6
Rheebus: 7
Uroburos: 7
Vampire bush: 2

Golden pheonix is simply to match enemy pheonix or I can just get free damage on enemy until they kill it. Doppleganger is my actual answer to Golden Pheonix at half the cost allowing me to kill any other creature they have or will summon. Rheebus makes it so any commitment to killing my pheonix is a waste of cards and stones. They also have to kill the pheonix through the infinite healing of 2 rheebus to make it end. Uroburos and vampire bush are the most consistent way to cause at least 1 point of damage. If the enemy doesn't run any dopplegangers, or God of destructions, I can basically insta win with Vampire bush combo as it can't be killed.

Basically this deck doesn't care about killing you. I just want to get at least 1 point of damage on you provided you can't heal it up, though the enemy should be at 0 stones the entire time. With rheebus spam, I should always be at full HP, once time runs out... I win. yay. I'll be testing this deck out come tomorrow, it may turn out to be worse than how I think it'll go.

User Info: Zaelleaz

1 year ago#207
Big post incoming:
kk, so as I've said, I've been working on how i'd go about the number of cards per tier style of play. Here's what I got.

Limited cards per tier list:

Unlimited: All Transform cards (bar devata)/ Skeleton/ Ghost armor/ Lizardman/ Mandragora/ Red Lizard/ Hobgoblin/ Sand Golem/ Jack-0-lantern/ Man Trap/mummy/ Orc/ Fairy/ Water Reaper/ Carbuncle/ Flayer Spawn/ Running Bird/ Giant Crab/ Land Shark/ Berserker/ Flyin Ray/ Demon Hound/ Mole Monster/ Maelstrom/ Lycanthrope/ Sand beetle/ Gold Butterfly/ Ghoul/ Treant/ Larval Fly/ Dark Raven/ Wizard/ Dragonoid/ Dryad/ Will o' Wisp/ Archer Tree/ Stone Head/ Efreet/ Dragon Knight/ Great Demon/ Evil Eye/ Gnome/ Siren/ Salamander/ Goblin Lord/ Scythe Beast/ Kitty Trap/ Night Mare/ Venus Spider/ Mermaid/ Plague Rat/ Undine/ Demon Skeleton/ Caterpoker/ Beelzabub/ Decoy Pillar/ All Elementals/ Aggressor GL2/ Sprite/ Leprechaun/ Yowie/ Porcupig/ Golden Porcupig/ Mandra dancer/ Super Pumper/ Lucky Lion/ Yin Yang/ Dao/ March Hare/ Marid/ Elf/ Global Bust/ Popgun Charlie/ Acid Cloud/ Baby Dragon/ Mechlance 5l/ Sekmet/ Undead Knight/ Lamassu/ Myconid/ Spartoi/ Raflesia/ witchlette/ AcidBot/Chameleus/ Devil Plant/ Dark Treant/ Coal Treant/ Sleeping Giant/ Dark Sprite/ Gargoyle/ MechaPult/ Aggressor DX5/ Matador/ Phooka/ Horus/ Acid Dragon/ Rubber Froggy/ Boom Monkey/ Uberbomberbot/ Pixie/ tumble Chick/ mad reverser/ Claws r us/ Triblaster/ Anarchy owl/ psycho dice/ blue mold/ beaker/ vouivre/ fire moray/ water moray/ earth moray/ice skeleton/ sacred umpire

These cards are such that they can't be abused in any quantity.

15 cards: Red dragon/ Elephant/ Sand Worm/ Cockatrice/ Sasquatch/ Wraith/ Vampire Bush/ Kraken/ Zombie Dragon/ Great Turtle/ Venom Lizard/ Hydra/ Chimera/ Puppet Master/ Steel Skeleton/ Green Dragon/ Charadrius/ Manticore/ Brine Dragon/ Gizmolizer/ Lazerbug 39K/ Daidarapochi/ Amber Dragon/ Storm Hagan/ Rock Hagan/ Bum Hagan/ Barometz/ Nueh/ Rabandos/ Ryuhi

These cards are easy cornerstones for deck styles/ strategies.

10 cards: Catoblepas/ Lich/ Behemoth/ Basilisk/ Necromancer/ Sea monk/ King Mandragora/ Crystal Rose/ Blood Bush/ Demon Fox/ Juggernaut/ Fire Gargoyle/ Blue Dragon/ Tiger Mage/ Trickster/ Mind Flayer/ Ice Golem/ Black Dragon/ Chaos Knight/ Incubus/ Valkerie/ Asparas/ Death/ Vodianoi/ Elf Lord/ Dark Elf/ Fireworks/ Gemini/ Demon Lord/ Gorgon/ Berzerk Master/ Sleipnir/ Wing Waves/ Jade Giant/ astrobot

These cards actively shift the battle to your favor when they do work or are overly reliable compared to counterparts.

7 cards: Fenril/ Fire Golem/ White Tiger/ Vampire/ Whip Worm/ Elephant King/ God of Destruction/ Doppleganger/ Napalm Beast/ Panther mage/ Phantom Ship/ Gravity Pillar/ Thanatos/ Fafnir/ Emperor **

These cards are either good at any point in time or can completely change the flow of battle.

5 cards: Banshee/ Rheebus/ Sphinx/ Succubus/ Pheonix/ SuperScrubber

These cards do their job like 7 card limit cards but better.

3 cards: Cyclops/ Octobush/ Uroboros/ Ashura/ Crystal Magic/ Demon Swordsman

These cards can force auto win situation

1 card: Golden Pheonix

This card IS the auto win situation

This is currently how I feel about each card and how they should be limited. Any possible questions about this or ideas on how you feel about a card, I'd love to hear it. For instance...

Q: Why is superscrubber so high tier now?
A: These cards aren't necessarily to be seen as tiers. In this format, stones aren't used as fast and are more easily gotten back and as such, superscrubber can fulfill it's role. It's at 5 cards because it's so reliable in it's job. Any attempt to kill it will always result in a negative stone trade for the enemy so they have to hit it as well as something else to go positive.

Anyways, I still plan to test this with my friend.

** Assumes you play with capture on so as to make Emperor a useful card in pvp.

User Info: Donniedonz

1 year ago#208
The Vampire Bush staller deck, in theory, seems like an incredibly potent defensive build. I'm interested to see how it holds up in practical use.

On the topic of Octobush, I encourage you to give it some solid testing. Because of the self-healing attack property, it can give you "endless" Uroboruses, and a single Z-powered Banshee hit can heal the user for nearly 100 health points! It could even fit into the afforementioned Vampire Bush Staller Deck. Regardless, it's certainly an important card to make note of and push the meta for. I'd make the arguement it's a top tier, and is a perfect fit for the "5 cards" or "3 cards" categories in your Limited Card Format.
Floating Octahedral Shard

User Info: Donniedonz

1 year ago#209
Also while testing, try out triple Z-Powered Earth Moray with Asura as a hand. You'll be shocked at the results (I know I was.)
Floating Octahedral Shard

User Info: Zaelleaz

1 year ago#210
Yeah, it will need to be tested against another player before I can definitively say it's even good. We'll see.

With octobush, when I was assuming pretty much anything goes, I (personally) never valued it too highly simply cause it was over shined by cyclops as helper/win condition and was like cyclops.. 100% useless against Golden Pheonix. And we know how much I value the dumb bird. That said, within the confines of limited tier play, I actually do value it really high. I consider it a as something that can force win conditions.. and I mean force.. I consider it just under cyclops and we both know it's OP. I will say I do need to test it specifically more than I have though but I've seen what it "can" do.. as long as bird isn't out is all.

Earth Moray.. That I will have to test for sure.. I don't remember any of them being too impressive. But I will make sure to test it too.

edit: Glad you feel octobush is in a good spot.. like that's the tricky part.. certain cards are more so pieces to the puzzle and even if stronger than normal, it's good to have more than just one. Octobush I feel is something that due to it's ability to last longer than most cards, lowers it to 3 cards rather than 5 so you're more punished for letting it die but.. yeah, like, it'd be dumb to have octobush or cyclops at 1.. or even uroburos just cause they are top tier cards.
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