The issue with EO games (and most RPG)

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User Info: Salocool

Salocool
5 months ago#1
Here's the situation : I just defeated pretty much every bosses in the game the exact same way, boosting up a Tri-Attack as much as possible while FocusChanting from afar, keeping the healing up and binding up the opposition.

Given how punishing switching skills around is (Go to the Guild, go select Rest, Re-equip every equipment, Respec every skill one point at a time, lose two levels, rince and repeat for all involved characters), you're strongly invited to pick the most solid strategy and just stick by it for the whole game.

Shin Megami Tensei : Digital Devil Saga found a nice way around that problem by allowing for swift and simple skill switching ; same for FF5 back in the day. Now, these games had their own issues (DDS could be cheesed through the Buff/Debuff spells up to a certain point, and FF5's random battles were nearly as lifeless as those in a DQ game), but they made sure to force variety upon the player while limiting the menu tedium as much as possible.

EOU and EOU2 managed to vastly limit this inconvenience by allowing for equipable skills in a very generous fashion (especially compared to EO5's single cryptic skill on a weapon that might be severely underpowered.)

What do you think? Is the design actually a clever use of tedium to entice the player into enjoying the game a specific way, i.e. with overspecializing your units?
And the Lord [...] drive out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.

User Info: Knight99102

Knight99102
5 months ago#2
But what's the alternative? Forcing you to switch classes and characters constantly because "oh, sorry, you can't beat this boss unless you have a ____ in your party"? I've played RPGs like that and I did not enjoy them.

I'm not going to claim EO5 is perfect, but it's definitely not the no-thought "use the same strategy on everything" game you're trying to claim it is. No, you don't need to completely rebuild your party between every boss, but you do have to switch up your strategies... unless you just grinded to 70 immediately or something.

The strategy isn't in switching classes, it's in figuring out how to accomplish what you need to do with the resources you have.

User Info: Blademaster_Aio

Blademaster_Aio
5 months ago#3
Knight99102 posted...
The strategy isn't in switching classes, it's in figuring out how to accomplish what you need to do with the resources you have.


Pretty much.

The rest penalty isn't severe either.
Believe God is one, and believe in the hereafter.

User Info: Terron145

Terron145
5 months ago#4
Salocool posted...
Given how punishing switching skills around is (Go to the Guild, go select Rest, Re-equip every equipment, Respec every skill one point at a time, lose two levels, rince and repeat for all involved characters), you're strongly invited to pick the most solid strategy and just stick by it for the whole game.
Most of the stuff you listed there is just a slew of minor inconveniences bundled together. Mechanically, Resting in EOIV and beyond isn't punishing at all, be it when taken into account in a vacuum or when compared to the three games that came before.

- EOI/EOII made you fork over 10 levels, and constantly put you in situations where you're likely to want to Rest a unit just because you had no idea a Skill was garbage. EOIII dropped this to 5, but that's still fairly significant since the AGI you lose from those 5 levels factor into your character's accuracy. This is where Resting is punishing, and it's for all the wrong reasons to boot.

Losing two levels in EOV doesn't matter; the stat loss isn't as imperative and your Skills are all solid enough to more than cover the difference. Not only that, but getting those two levels back is absurdly easy, to the point where Resting might as well be free in EOV; I could make the same argument for EO2U, actually.

- Because of this shift in design, the player can just focus more on experimentation should s/he feel so inclined. The first three games encourage you to just run with a single solid strategy, because you really have no choice in the matter, but here? Nah, EOV is more forgiving.

If you had made this thread way back when, I'd probably agree with the sentiment, but the games have recently altered their design philosophy to address this very notion. The tedium isn't really there anymore.

User Info: Salocool

Salocool
5 months ago#5
Knight99102 posted...
But what's the alternative? Forcing you to switch classes and characters constantly because "oh, sorry, you can't beat this boss unless you have a ____ in your party"?

- No penalty for respec' : it's just a loss of time.
- More equipable skills.
- Food effects
And the Lord [...] drive out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.

User Info: Salocool

Salocool
5 months ago#6
Terron145 posted...
If you had made this thread way back when, I'd probably agree with the sentiment, but the games have recently altered their design philosophy to address this very notion. The tedium isn't really there anymore.

Lesser tedium than previous game is still tedium! I'm not going to excuse a murder because of a genocide the year before.
And the Lord [...] drive out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.

User Info: Salocool

Salocool
5 months ago#7
Blademaster_Aio posted...
The strategy isn't in switching classes, it's in figuring out how to accomplish what you need to do with the resources you have.

And doing that leads me to Overexertion/Tri-Attack combo every FOE/Boss alongside a simple Heal/Bind/Protect/Magic combo.
And the Lord [...] drive out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.

User Info: Terron145

Terron145
5 months ago#8
Salocool posted...
Lesser tedium than previous game is still tedium!
Then, what, do you simply have a Zero Tolerance policy when it comes to the subject of tedium? Because that's a completely different discussion altogether. The penalty Resting incurs in EOV strikes me as being more or less lacking in any semblance of tedium. Two levels and a bit of extra time spent thinking about how I want to allocate my SP is perfectly acceptable since I already take my time with that anyway.

What matters most, at least for me, is whether or not the game forces me into situations where I have to Rest, which it has only done once - with the unlocking of Promotions, and even then there were several units that I didn't Rest at all, because my original allocation path already aligned with my Promotion's intentions.

Salocool posted...
And doing that leads me to Overexertion/Tri-Attack combo every FOE/Boss alongside a simple Heal/Bind/Protect/Magic combo.
Yes, but think about why you committed to that setup. Was it because the setup was simply effective or was it because the game constantly forced you into a situation where changing up the strategy would have been way too inconvenient? I'm willing to bet that it was a result of the former mixed with you simply not wanting to be bothered with the act of changing things up, which isn't the same thing as the game being tedious.

I'm in a position where I can run three different setups against any given Boss now, technically four, and the only thing I need to change is the party composition; Resting is not involved.

User Info: Blademaster_Aio

Blademaster_Aio
5 months ago#9
I tried various set ups because I had plenty of characters, so it was something new and fun each time.
Believe God is one, and believe in the hereafter.

User Info: Jaquan1

Jaquan1
5 months ago#10
Salocool posted...
Terron145 posted...
If you had made this thread way back when, I'd probably agree with the sentiment, but the games have recently altered their design philosophy to address this very notion. The tedium isn't really there anymore.

Lesser tedium than previous game is still tedium! I'm not going to excuse a murder because of a genocide the year before.


You are aware that grimoire system was the most broken piece of **** ever created in those games? It stripped classes from their individuality reducing them to string of stats and skills you'd be allowed to mash however you want. Making every encounter have only one solution (aside from just cheesing it) leads to reducing the replayability of the game. As someone mentioned before EO in general isn't about fully adapting to the situation but finding a way while taking into consideration your limits. My main team ended up as Two Deathguards (1 focused on Attack debuff and Atonement, Other focused on Ephemeral Reap, basic Paralyze Reap and Ailment, and defense debuffs) Blade Murasao (Armor Pierce, Foot Sweep and Bolt Slash), Spirit Evoker (Heals and tank with occasional poison) and Divine Punisher (Attack and Defense Buffs and Oracles boosted by the Passive that gives chance to retain buffs). As you can guess my plan mostly revolves around Ephemeral Reap as main damage source though depending on situation I could safely swap to slow turtling, ailment/bind infliction with items or union skills or smaller but more regular damage. All without ever swapping classes.
All praise the Gargwazios the Almighty.
Stablemaster of the Gargwa - I shall ride them all.. IGN: Kayla FC: Yeah sorry not giving this one away.
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