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  3. Problems with P5's writing, unmarked spoilers for the whole series

User Info: sillyfudgemonke

sillyfudgemonke
9 months ago#1
A thread dedicated to issues you had with P5's writing and/or by extension, plot. Not really a P5 bash thread (but if you wanna vent go right ahead), more of a way to explain why we liked or didn't like certain things about P5. Also no need to mark spoilers for any of the Persona games, this is going to be a very spoilery thread. (and I'm including all the Persona games, because maybe you want to compare something from P5 to a past game)

Let's start with dungeon 1. We'll go one dungeon at a time, one dungeon per thread.

User Info: sillyfudgemonke

sillyfudgemonke
9 months ago#2
Ok so for dungeon 1....I think the game kinda strangle holds you too much with the tutorial. You can't skip it......it's stop and go.....goes on for really long......I wish there was a short cut we could take if it was NG+.

I would've preferred if the game just gave me an info dump like P4 rather than give me control and then take it away over....and over.....and over again.

User Info: Miriateru

Miriateru
9 months ago#3
sillyfudgemonke posted...
Ok so for dungeon 1....I think the game kinda strangle holds you too much with the tutorial. You can't skip it......it's stop and go.....goes on for really long......I wish there was a short cut we could take if it was NG+.

I would've preferred if the game just gave me an info dump like P4 rather than give me control and then take it away over....and over.....and over again.


That has been also my main issue with the first dungeon. The tutorial gets too long since it continues every time you go to the palace, which means three times. I really wanted to skip it, because it was extremely time consuming and bothering. However, due to all those trips to the same palace, it kind of grew on me, and thanks to that the fort palace is one of my favorites. I have kind of mixed feelings about it as you can see XD

User Info: TheShadowMan683

TheShadowMan683
9 months ago#4
This isn't a problem I had with specific parts of the game. But I didn't really like how the party members were treated in this game, story-wise.

I'm currently playing through Persona 3 and I'm realizing that there's a lot more focus on your fellow party members and it feels like they're much more important to the overall story. Every party member in the game has their own story arc that progresses as you continue through the game, with them all resolving as you near the end, finishing with the resolution of your own arc. The only characters that don't really get this are Koro (because he's a dog) and Fuuka, who seems to get her own moment in the spotlight (when she initially joins your team) and then she's kinda tossed aside, only to really be brought up again later in the game when she needs to get her second Persona.

The thing is, after playing P3, I'm kinda starting to feel like almost all the party members in P5 got the Fuuka treatment. They get their moment in the spotlight for their specific arc (Ryuji and Ann with Kamoshida, Yusuke with Madarame, etc...) and then they just become Phantom Thieves and get no more personal development. They stick around to do their jobs and interact with everyone else, but for the most part they just stay that way for the rest of the game. With the only exception really being Morgana, I feel like there was a lot of missed potential.

I still absolutely loved P5, it's what got me interested in this series in the first place, but after playing P3, this just kinda irked me.
~ Just chilling in the Shadows ~

User Info: sillyfudgemonke

sillyfudgemonke
9 months ago#5
Miriateru posted...
hat has been also my main issue with the first dungeon. The tutorial gets too long since it continues every time you go to the palace, which means three times. I really wanted to skip it, because it was extremely time consuming and bothering. However, due to all those trips to the same palace, it kind of grew on me, and thanks to that the fort palace is one of my favorites. I have kind of mixed feelings about it as you can see XD

I agree it's a bit of love hate, it's great the first time through, but I had played through the opening like........8 times by that point, and I was sick of it. XP It is not NG+ friendly. ;w;

TheShadowMan683 posted...
I'm currently playing through Persona 3 and I'm realizing that there's a lot more focus on your fellow party members and it feels like they're much more important to the overall story.

Fair enough! I had actually just changed the rules about this thread prior to anyone seeing (at first it was going to be a free for all but then someone suggested just focusing on one dungeon/arc at a time). Anyway, I brought up how I was sad that P5 characters didn't have a B plot. I personally feel like Anne's could've easily been about Kamoshida apologists (might not have tied directly into the main plot, maybe a Mementos request, but it's better than nothing).

The issue I found is that P5 followed P4's formula instead of P3 (also of note, without actually doing anything that P4 did that made it work). P4 it was character driven, P3 was plot driven. P3 had B plots, P4 had just the whole team together all the time growing together at the same time. P4 had dungeons similar to palaces, but the palace owners are the future party members themselves (so you get to hear all their deepest insecurities), this doesn't even mention the pre-dungeon build up. P5? You get some pre-dungeon build up, and then the dungeon is focused on the bad guy (it only worked for the 1st dungeon cause it was personal and the 4th cause.....it was similar to P4)....not the new party member....so there isn't as much depth as P4's. But yeah I completely agree with you. I think P5 should've followed P3's example on this sadly. Not that P4's bad, it just not the right fit for P5's story imo.

User Info: PixieRed

PixieRed
9 months ago#6
sillyfudgemonke posted...
I personally feel like Anne's could've easily been about Kamoshida apologists (might not have tied directly into the main plot, maybe a Mementos request, but it's better than nothing).
I like the idea of Kamoshida apologists because I think it ties into the apathy issue at the end really well.

Another possibility is that throughout the story, though only through quotes here and there, I think Ann is the one who most firmly is in it because she never wants anyone to suffer at the hands of evil adults again. I really like that about her character and I think her finding a way to do that would also tie in well to the idea of overcoming apathy.
P5 Fanfics: http://archiveofourown.org/users/PixieRed/works

User Info: Hunswar

Hunswar
9 months ago#7
sillyfudgemonke posted...
Miriateru posted...
hat has been also my main issue with the first dungeon. The tutorial gets too long since it continues every time you go to the palace, which means three times. I really wanted to skip it, because it was extremely time consuming and bothering. However, due to all those trips to the same palace, it kind of grew on me, and thanks to that the fort palace is one of my favorites. I have kind of mixed feelings about it as you can see XD

I agree it's a bit of love hate, it's great the first time through, but I had played through the opening like........8 times by that point, and I was sick of it. XP It is not NG+ friendly. ;w;

TheShadowMan683 posted...
I'm currently playing through Persona 3 and I'm realizing that there's a lot more focus on your fellow party members and it feels like they're much more important to the overall story.

Fair enough! I had actually just changed the rules about this thread prior to anyone seeing (at first it was going to be a free for all but then someone suggested just focusing on one dungeon/arc at a time). Anyway, I brought up how I was sad that P5 characters didn't have a B plot. I personally feel like Anne's could've easily been about Kamoshida apologists (might not have tied directly into the main plot, maybe a Mementos request, but it's better than nothing).

The issue I found is that P5 followed P4's formula instead of P3 (also of note, without actually doing anything that P4 did that made it work). P4 it was character driven, P3 was plot driven. P3 had B plots, P4 had just the whole team together all the time growing together at the same time. P4 had dungeons similar to palaces, but the palace owners are the future party members themselves (so you get to hear all their deepest insecurities), this doesn't even mention the pre-dungeon build up. P5? You get some pre-dungeon build up, and then the dungeon is focused on the bad guy (it only worked for the 1st dungeon cause it was personal and the 4th cause.....it was similar to P4)....not the new party member....so there isn't as much depth as P4's. But yeah I completely agree with you. I think P5 should've followed P3's example on this sadly. Not that P4's bad, it just not the right fit for P5's story imo.


I kinda agree with your general statement, but your comparison with P4 is horribly wrong.

P5 has so much more build up before a dungeon, in comparison to P4. Take Yusuke for example, how often the thieves interact with him before he joins, and compare this with Kanji, who gets almost no build up.

Makoto got more screen time before joining than every P4 member combined, except Naoto.

But the best way to compare this aspect of these games is Futabas dungeon. P5 spends a lot of time to show who she is, what she went through and how she suffers. It's in a complete different level, than P4s little build ups. It's done so much better.

Her dungeon is also a great example to show how lackluster P4s dungeon are in comparison. They have no story whatsoever until the very end. And even these stuff is not quite good, because there is almost never enough build up.

P5 is arguably so much better at this, because it spends a lot of time for it's main narrative, unlike P4.

User Info: sillyfudgemonke

sillyfudgemonke
9 months ago#8
Hunswar posted...
but your comparison with P4 is horribly wrong.

P5 has so much more build up before a dungeon, in comparison to P4. Take Yusuke for example, how often the thieves interact with him before he joins, and compare this with Kanji, who gets almost no build up.

Oh I wasn't building up P4 more than I meant to. It was just on top of the dungeon thing (the dungeon thing was the main statement). P5 does take more time pre-dungeon, but it needs too because the dungeon itself isn't going to delve into their psyche like P4 did. And Makoto really needed it because her relation to Kaneshiro is......almost non-existent to literally any other character to Palace boss. I didn't mean to imply P4's pre dungeon was better than P5's. Just that P4 had a pre dungeon and a dungeon focused on a character. P5, generally, had only the pre dungeon.

Hunswar posted...
But the best way to compare this aspect of these games is Futabas dungeon. P5 spends a lot of time to show who she is, what she went through and how she suffers. It's in a complete different level, than P4s little build ups. It's done so much better.

Yeah that's why I said it (and the 1st dungeon) were the one's that it worked out the most, with dungeon 4 working because it was like P4 (aka it played to P4's strong suit, unlike the rest of the dungeons....because it's focused on the boss rather than the character). And it should work out better than P4's, because they already have the ground work they just need to improve on it.

Hunswar posted...
They have no story whatsoever until the very end.

I wouldn't say that, there's dialogue hinting and foreshadowing to the main event on each floor up to the boss. P4 also, sadly, had randomized dungeons while P5 has fixed, so P5 should have an advantage (if P4 got a remake, I would hope they'd take the time to add on to it's dungeons). But tbh......there was too many long gaps between content/text into her psyche with P5.....that I didn't think it gave it too much of a leg up in that department.

Hunswar posted...
P5 is arguably so much better at this, because it spends a lot of time for it's main narrative, unlike P4.

Well I mean you only talked about the 4th dungeon (again, it worked cause if followed P4's formula) and the predungeon stuff (again the needed to do that because the dungeon itself wasn't, usually, focused on them) but I'd have to disagree about P5 being "better at it." I know a lot more about P4 characters and how they work because of their introduction than I do P5 (in all honesty, I keep forgetting Yusuke exists in P5 half the time, and I know he likes food and art....and I only find out about food after the dungeon).

I do agree P5 follows the main narrative/plot more, while P4 follows it's characters. P3 follows the main narrative/plot, which...yeah....P5 should've copied P3. I should note I don't think a game being more plot driven or being more character is better than one or the other, I like both as long as both are executed well, which I think P3/4 did in their own respected games. P5 I think tried to fuse both, which is fine, but in the end it missed out on what made P3/4 great (aka B plots nicely woven into the A plot for 3, group development and in depth character psyche exploration with P4). Of course that isn't say P5 missed out on those completely, lots of people will state that Makoto/Futaba have B plots, and they do have a group dynamic....it's just....not shown in the same way as P4 (it's usually through text). It's just not as in depth as how P3 or P4 did theirs.

I hope that helped explained what I was trying to get at. ^^;

User Info: meteora88

meteora88
9 months ago#9
The social links for the main cast in P5 could’ve been a lot better tbh.

Although it’s not my favourite Persona game, the social links for the main cast in that game are very noteworthy with lots of character development.

The only good link stories were for Yusuke, Haru and Futaba.

The others were very lacklustre.
"Don't be asinine." - Ravus Nox Fleuret when asked a stupid question.

User Info: Hunswar

Hunswar
9 months ago#10

I do agree P5 follows the main narrative/plot more, while P4 follows it's characters. P3 follows the main narrative/plot, which...yeah....P5 should've copied P3. I should note I don't think a game being more plot driven or being more character is better than one or the as how P3 or P4 did theirs.

I hope that helped explained what I was trying to get at. ^^;


Yeah, helped a lot. Though I think you give P4 way to much credit for its dungeons. Characters get almost no time in their respective arc and the dungeons themselves also don't provide much story.
To P5s group dynamic. Imo P5 is even more story focused than 3. Replaying P4 after 5 showed how much dedication there is for the main narrative. If you complete a dungeon in 4 in the first day of the deadline, the game starts every day with the remark, wait until x recovers, for good 2 works or so. And no one in the IT ever talks about what happened, during this time.

P5s character are constantly in touch and discuss the whereabouts of the story, mostly due text message
It gets repetitive after a while and Atlus could've cut like 30% of them, but the implication is clear, that the game and its characters are surly dedicated to the plot.

I think this catched many people, coming from P4 off guard, which went the complete opposite way by having almost no main story, rather focusing on events with the characters.
Personally I like both but hugely prefer P5s approach, because it lends to stuff like the first dungeon, Futabas dungeon, Saes or the final, which are only possible with a huge emphasis on the main narrative.
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