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User Info: Espeon

Espeon
4 weeks ago#51
I always love to see the argument of “can’t censor hate speech because it’s just gonna happen anyway” or “can’t enact gun control because gun violence is just gonna happen anyway” coming from anti-abortion zealots.
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User Info: Mr Lasastryke

Mr Lasastryke
4 weeks ago#52
Vlado posted...
Hardly something to celebrate.


why not? even the most right-wing people here admit that the chinese are generally exemplary well-behaved citizens of our country.

Why? Numbers are numbers. You can discuss them without being a scientist.


the numbers are contested, as i pointed out in the previous topic.

as long as there's not a 100% consensus about the numbers in the scientific community, you're just picking and choosing the numbers you like the most without any kind of scientific basis. (gee, wonder why you and muffin are so eager to agree with the "BLACK PEOPLE ARE STOOPID" numbers.)

That's a lame excuse. Violence will always happen, for countless reasons.


wtf kind of logic is this? so if i go out on the street and punch someone in the face i shouldn't be punished either? "violence will always happen, for countless reasons, so why punish any act of violence, right?"
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User Info: Vlado

Vlado
4 weeks ago#53
Mr Lasastryke posted...
why not? even the most right-wing people here admit that the chinese are generally exemplary well-behaved citizens of our country.

Because they aren't Dutch. But yeah, there are degrees of bad.

Mr Lasastryke posted...
as long as there's not a 100% consensus about the numbers in the scientific community

So never then? There will always be shills masquerading as scientists.

Mr Lasastryke posted...
wtf kind of logic is this? so if i go out on the street and punch someone in the face i shouldn't be punished either? "violence will always happen, for countless reasons, so why punish any act of violence, right?"

We were talking about "hate speech," not violence.
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User Info: Mr Lasastryke

Mr Lasastryke
4 weeks ago#54
Vlado posted...
Because they aren't Dutch.


so?

(also, a lot of them ARE dutch, given that they were born here.)

So never then?


not necessarily. pretty sure no serious scientist nowadays argues that the earth is the center of the universe.

apart from that, it's a matter of degrees. if there's a 99.99% concensus among scientists about something, it's fair to accept it as truth. but the percentage of scientists who agree with the bell curve statistics isn't nearly as high as that.

We were talking about "hate speech," not violence.


hate speech can lead to violence. your argument was that when hate speech leads to violence, it shouldn't be punished because "violence always happens." that's nonsense. by that logic, we shouldn't punish anyone for doing anything.
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User Info: Vlado

Vlado
4 weeks ago#55
Mr Lasastryke posted...
pretty sure no serious scientist nowadays argues that the earth is the center of the universe.

Oh, so maybe in a few centuries! Nah, not gonna wait so long.

Mr Lasastryke posted...
but the percentage of scientists who agree with the bell curve statistics isn't nearly as high as that.

Doesn't matter. Facts are facts.

Mr Lasastryke posted...
by that logic, we shouldn't punish anyone for doing anything.

That's your own leap there.

Mr Lasastryke posted...
your argument was that when hate speech leads to violence, it shouldn't be punished because "violence always happens."

No, because violence will happen with or without the speech. And free speech must ALWAYS have priority because it's a very important vehicle of political change. If you restrict it, you basically doom your country to stagnation and inevitable decline.

Free speech can actually PREVENT violence because it can steer people towards a political solution before violence breaks out.
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User Info: Mr Lasastryke

Mr Lasastryke
4 weeks ago#56
Vlado posted...
Doesn't matter. Facts are facts.


it matters a ton because we, as non-scientists, don't have access to said facts. again, you're just picking and choosing the claims by scientists you agree with.

That's your own leap there.


how is it my own leap? it's the logical consequence of what you're saying. your argument is "if hate speech leads to violence, we shouldn't punish it because violence always happens." by that logic, why should we punish anyone for doing anything? why can't we say "we shouldn't punish someone for stealing an apple, because apple thievery always happens"?
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User Info: Vlado

Vlado
4 weeks ago#57
Mr Lasastryke posted...
it matters a ton because we, as non-scientists, don't have access to said facts. again, you're just picking and choosing the claims by scientists you agree with.

No, we're not "picking and choosing." It's the only factual data available. Feel free to provide data-based counter-argument to the statistics Muffin cited. Not excuses as to why the numbers may be as they are, DATA that counters the data we use.

Mr Lasastryke posted...
your argument is "if hate speech leads to violence, we shouldn't punish it because violence always happens."

My argument is that "leads to violence" is a fake excuse to punish speech, as anything can potentially lead to violence. You'll have to be more convincing.
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(edited 4 weeks ago)

User Info: Mr Lasastryke

Mr Lasastryke
4 weeks ago#58
Vlado posted...
No, we're not "picking and choosing." It's the only factual data available. Feel free to provide data-based counter-argument to the statistics Muffin cited.


muffin didn't cite any statistics. he just posted a stupid dog comic and then claimed that statistics show that black people are dumber than white people without anything resembling a source. i myself cited statistics discussed in the bell curve - because it's the best known book discussing race science - and then cited the wikipedia article about the bell curve in which a scientist contested the statistics contained therein. here's the quote again:

Evolutionary biologist Joseph L. Graves described The Bell Curve as an example of racist science, containing all the types of errors in the application of scientific method that have characterized the history of scientific racism:

claims that are not supported by the data given
errors in calculation that invariably support the hypothesis
no mention of data that contradict the hypothesis
no mention of theories and data that conflict with core assumptions

bold policy recommendations that are consistent with those advocated by racists.[56]


the bold parts are clearly criticism of the provided statistics. deliberately omitting data that contradict the hypothesis/core assumptions would totally invalidate the data.

My argument is that "leads to violence" is a fake excuse to punish speech, as anything can potentially lead to violence. You'll have to be more convincing.


uh... there's so many examples of speech leading to violence in history, i'm baffled that i apparently need to explain this. are you seriously denying that islamic terrorists were influenced by their faith, for instance?
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(edited 4 weeks ago)

User Info: Vlado

Vlado
4 weeks ago#59
I want to see actual data that says (Eastern) Asians > Europeans > Africans in IQ is not true, not excuses. You basically cited some hack whining about "racist science," which is not data.

And I said anything can lead to violence. That's no reason to ban all those things. Hooligans fight at matches? Let's ban football! No.
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(edited 4 weeks ago)

User Info: Mr Lasastryke

Mr Lasastryke
4 weeks ago#60
Vlado posted...
You basically cited some hack whining about "racist science," which is not data.


lol. yeah, scientists claiming that black people are dumber than white people are credible and renowned and a scientist contesting this claim is "some hack whining." you're clearly unbiased and objective about this matter.

And I said anything can lead to violence. That's no reason to ban all those things. Hooligans fight at matches? Let's ban football! No.


i never said we should "ban" free speech. i said we should put very slight restrictions on free speech. what i'm proposing is more akin to not allowing hooligans at football matches.
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