Is the only way a class card can be considered balanced is if few people run it?

  • Topic Archived
You're browsing the GameFAQs Message Boards as a guest. Sign Up for free (or Log In if you already have an account) to be able to post messages, change how messages are displayed, and view media in posts.
  1. Boards
  2. Hearthstone: Heroes of Warcraft
  3. Is the only way a class card can be considered balanced is if few people run it?

User Info: Hezzara

Hezzara
1 month ago#11
DonnyG33 posted...
MajinUltima posted...
mayatola posted...
Cards aren't broken because people play it. People play cards because they are broken. People tend to prefer winning over losing, so it's only natural if a card is good, it'll be end up in a lot of decks.

--This, but with the caveat that people are also lazy and prefer fast matches and/or non-interactive matches, so cards and strategies don't actually need to be "good" so much as they need to average out to enough of a winrate.

ie "I played Corridor Creeper after the enemy wiped my board and it did 14 damage over 2 turns and a Bonemare, which was enough for a Leeory lethal later"
Doesn't make either card "good", doesn't make greedily overextending a good strategy, it simply means there's enough variance combined with few enough punishes for greed that it improves the winrate.

I imagine complaints nowadays are more justly directed at how much the game is
"Player A drew X before Player B drew Y, so Player A won because there's jack squat Player B can do about it"
The game and decks aren't about playing well or constructing a consistent deck, it's just about doing whatever you need to do to enable some bs card or two to snowball the game, and whoever gets luckier first with drawing/playing the bs card tends to win.

Why should I use a mop to clean my floor when I can use a toothbrush? The toothbrush will clean the floor just fine, y'all using mops are lazy and just looking to finish faster.


TERRIBLE analogy. Cleaning the floor is a chore and is only done because it *needs* to be done (unless you're one of those people who enjoy cleaning anyway), so you go for the best mix of speed and effectiveness, which is usually using a mop. Hearthstone is a game which you play for enjoyment and to relax (unless you play competitively for a living).

Now, yes, there are people who legitimately find the current meta gameplan of slam down your broken cards before they can draw and slam down theirs then just go face enjoyable, but then there are people who prefer the slow drawn out matches where you don't know what to expect, and I imagine there are more of the latter than the former. This is why I love playing against out-of-meta decks using oddball things like Temporus, Toggwaggle or Ixlid. I don't expect those, yet out they come to ruin my day and its *amazing* when that happens.

Some of the most fun I've had in hearthstone lately is in Wild with a Big Rogue using Kobold Illusionist, Cheat Death and Sonya to cheat out 1/1 versions of powerful cards then keep em coming. The other day I managed to summon a dozen Lich Kings, mostly 1/1s but a couple 8/8 variants too, against an opponent who was just trying to rush face. It's most definitely not a top tier deck, far from it, it's very hit and miss on draws and relies on getting Barnes or Illusionists out early with appropriate targets but good lord it's fun.

Honestly, it all just comes down to Blizzard's terrible attempts at making expansions desireable by throwing in a handful of obscene power creep cards, and the ladder system being designed to benefit fast efficient matches.

User Info: MajinUltima

MajinUltima
1 month ago#12
soggytoast11 posted...
I had hope that the devs would find a way to make the game more interesting - give players better options and more ways to interact with each other. But it seems like they are happy with having this kind of "balance" to the game where everyone just goldfishes for their most unfair way to blow each other out.

--I too had hope, but then you get sheep who praise and white knight the terrible decisions. And all too many streamers are all too eager to not throw up as much criticism as they really should when it comes to the direction the game took with MSG and beyond.

Of course, any valid criticism is also lost in the white noise of people who complain only about balance and the meta, and don't look at the big picture of design.

Hezzara posted...
Some of the most fun I've had in hearthstone lately is in Wild with a Big Rogue using Kobold Illusionist, Cheat Death and Sonya to cheat out 1/1 versions of powerful cards then keep em coming. The other day I managed to summon a dozen Lich Kings, mostly 1/1s but a couple 8/8 variants too, against an opponent who was just trying to rush face. It's most definitely not a top tier deck, far from it, it's very hit and miss on draws and relies on getting Barnes or Illusionists out early with appropriate targets but good lord it's fun.

--Ah the Dane memes, good stuff.
http://i.imgur.com/mYFkgcb.gifv

User Info: DonnyG33

DonnyG33
1 month ago#13
Hezzara posted...
DonnyG33 posted...
MajinUltima posted...
mayatola posted...
Cards aren't broken because people play it. People play cards because they are broken. People tend to prefer winning over losing, so it's only natural if a card is good, it'll be end up in a lot of decks.

--This, but with the caveat that people are also lazy and prefer fast matches and/or non-interactive matches, so cards and strategies don't actually need to be "good" so much as they need to average out to enough of a winrate.

ie "I played Corridor Creeper after the enemy wiped my board and it did 14 damage over 2 turns and a Bonemare, which was enough for a Leeory lethal later"
Doesn't make either card "good", doesn't make greedily overextending a good strategy, it simply means there's enough variance combined with few enough punishes for greed that it improves the winrate.

I imagine complaints nowadays are more justly directed at how much the game is
"Player A drew X before Player B drew Y, so Player A won because there's jack squat Player B can do about it"
The game and decks aren't about playing well or constructing a consistent deck, it's just about doing whatever you need to do to enable some bs card or two to snowball the game, and whoever gets luckier first with drawing/playing the bs card tends to win.

Why should I use a mop to clean my floor when I can use a toothbrush? The toothbrush will clean the floor just fine, y'all using mops are lazy and just looking to finish faster.


TERRIBLE analogy. Cleaning the floor is a chore and is only done because it *needs* to be done (unless you're one of those people who enjoy cleaning anyway), so you go for the best mix of speed and effectiveness, which is usually using a mop. Hearthstone is a game which you play for enjoyment and to relax (unless you play competitively for a living).

Now, yes, there are people who legitimately find the current meta gameplan of slam down your broken cards before they can draw and slam down theirs then just go face enjoyable, but then there are people who prefer the slow drawn out matches where you don't know what to expect, and I imagine there are more of the latter than the former. This is why I love playing against out-of-meta decks using oddball things like Temporus, Toggwaggle or Ixlid. I don't expect those, yet out they come to ruin my day and its *amazing* when that happens.

Some of the most fun I've had in hearthstone lately is in Wild with a Big Rogue using Kobold Illusionist, Cheat Death and Sonya to cheat out 1/1 versions of powerful cards then keep em coming. The other day I managed to summon a dozen Lich Kings, mostly 1/1s but a couple 8/8 variants too, against an opponent who was just trying to rush face. It's most definitely not a top tier deck, far from it, it's very hit and miss on draws and relies on getting Barnes or Illusionists out early with appropriate targets but good lord it's fun.

Honestly, it all just comes down to Blizzard's terrible attempts at making expansions desireable by throwing in a handful of obscene power creep cards, and the ladder system being designed to benefit fast efficient matches.

There are many people that love cleaning. That said, if people will be more efficient in ANYTHING, they will generally take that route. They'd be foolish not to. That's the point.

F2P: Damn right I want to make gold as quickly as possible to buy more packs.
Legend Grinder: Pretty obvious
Casual: Man, losing a long ass game after 20 minutes sucks (sensible, efficient Casual person, at least)
F2P people. The vegans of the gaming world. They'll tell you about it even if no one asked.

User Info: DonnyG33

DonnyG33
1 month ago#14
MajinUltima posted...
soggytoast11 posted...
I had hope that the devs would find a way to make the game more interesting - give players better options and more ways to interact with each other. But it seems like they are happy with having this kind of "balance" to the game where everyone just goldfishes for their most unfair way to blow each other out.

--I too had hope, but then you get sheep who praise and white knight the terrible decisions. And all too many streamers are all too eager to not throw up as much criticism as they really should when it comes to the direction the game took with MSG and beyond.

Of course, any valid criticism is also lost in the white noise of people who complain only about balance and the meta, and don't look at the big picture of design.

Hezzara posted...
Some of the most fun I've had in hearthstone lately is in Wild with a Big Rogue using Kobold Illusionist, Cheat Death and Sonya to cheat out 1/1 versions of powerful cards then keep em coming. The other day I managed to summon a dozen Lich Kings, mostly 1/1s but a couple 8/8 variants too, against an opponent who was just trying to rush face. It's most definitely not a top tier deck, far from it, it's very hit and miss on draws and relies on getting Barnes or Illusionists out early with appropriate targets but good lord it's fun.

--Ah the Dane memes, good stuff.

Please tell me I'm not the only person that saw this HILARIOUSLY hypocritical post. PLEASE.
F2P people. The vegans of the gaming world. They'll tell you about it even if no one asked.

User Info: redundancies

redundancies
1 month ago#15
Hezzara posted...
TERRIBLE analogy. Cleaning the floor is a chore and is only done because it *needs* to be done (unless you're one of those people who enjoy cleaning anyway), so you go for the best mix of speed and effectiveness, which is usually using a mop. Hearthstone is a game which you play for enjoyment and to relax (unless you play competitively for a living).

Yeah, and it's more enjoyable to win than lose, so you go with strategies that work more often than not.

I play euchre for fun - usually none or very little money - but I'm still going to play my cards in an effort to win. I'm not going to throw off when I can trump the trick and take it.

User Info: Hezzara

Hezzara
1 month ago#16
redundancies posted...
Hezzara posted...
TERRIBLE analogy. Cleaning the floor is a chore and is only done because it *needs* to be done (unless you're one of those people who enjoy cleaning anyway), so you go for the best mix of speed and effectiveness, which is usually using a mop. Hearthstone is a game which you play for enjoyment and to relax (unless you play competitively for a living).

Yeah, and it's more enjoyable to win than lose, so you go with strategies that work more often than not.

I play euchre for fun - usually none or very little money - but I'm still going to play my cards in an effort to win. I'm not going to throw off when I can trump the trick and take it.


Well of course, but in a perfect world you'd have a well-balanced set of cards where you can stand a reasonable chance against the most perfectly optimised decks without having to hope like hope that you can draw exactly what you need exactly when you need it, and surprise people with card combos that they aren't expecting. Right now when you vs a priest you can more or less guarantee they're going to be dragons and big spells, with little to no variation at all. This isn't at all anything the players are at fault for, they're going to naturally go for the most efficient decks. This is something Blizzard is at fault for, for having no clue how to make new expansions interesting and desirable without power creeping the meta.

If you compare Hearthstone now to Hearthstone at launch, it's basically two completely different games. Launch Hearthstone had its own set of broken things, but those were all extremely tame compared to the broken things of today. I mean, double Innervate Yeti turn 1 used to be an almost guaranteed gg all in play. A three card combo that left you with an empty hand. Now we have a 3 mana 3/3 that summons a 2/2 with Charge, as an example, which then feeds into a 0 mana 5/5 that could be played on the same turn as either a Scalebane or a Bonemare. We also have Priests that have Shadowform except it can be used multiple times per turn and for free, and other priests that will summon a 6 mana 4/4 along with a random 8 or 10 mana minion, and an 8 mana 4/7 that will either summon another random 8 mana minion or mind control one of your minions for free while also thinning your deck. And of course let's not forget Warlocks who can summon a Voidlord as early as turn 5, and can summon upwards of a dozen Doomguards over the course of a game without discarding a single card.

Power level is way out of whack.

User Info: redundancies

redundancies
1 month ago#17
Hezzara posted...
Right now when you vs a priest you can more or less guarantee they're going to be dragons and big spells, with little to no variation at all. This isn't at all anything the players are at fault for, they're going to naturally go for the most efficient decks. This is something Blizzard is at fault for, for having no clue how to make new expansions interesting and desirable without power creeping the meta.

Dragons with big sells are one of three different decks that priests use in the meta - there's also Big Priest (big minions) and Razakus. I'd say that Blizzard has done a pretty good job with making priests viable without one deck to rule them all; as stated earlier, this is true for most of the other classes as well.

Hezzara posted...
f you compare Hearthstone now to Hearthstone at launch, it's basically two completely different games. Launch Hearthstone had its own set of broken things, but those were all extremely tame compared to the broken things of today.

I think comparing "current" to "former" strength of the cards is the wrong way of going about things. What matters is how you stack up against the other current cards; I'm not playing against Huntertaker decks or anything.

Hezzara posted...
We also have Priests that have Shadowform except it can be used multiple times per turn and for free, and other priests that will summon a 6 mana 4/4 along with a random 8 or 10 mana minion, and an 8 mana 4/7 that will either summon another random 8 mana minion or mind control one of your minions for free while also thinning your deck. And of course let's not forget Warlocks who can summon a Voidlord as early as turn 5, and can summon upwards of a dozen Doomguards over the course of a game without discarding a single card.

Sounds like an even game to me, with the possibility of big swing turns and strong cards duking it out in the late game. Sure it's different than before, but who wants to play the game the same way for 4 years?

User Info: Hezzara

Hezzara
1 month ago#18
redundancies posted...
Hezzara posted...
Right now when you vs a priest you can more or less guarantee they're going to be dragons and big spells, with little to no variation at all. This isn't at all anything the players are at fault for, they're going to naturally go for the most efficient decks. This is something Blizzard is at fault for, for having no clue how to make new expansions interesting and desirable without power creeping the meta.

Dragons with big sells are one of three different decks that priests use in the meta - there's also Big Priest (big minions) and Razakus. I'd say that Blizzard has done a pretty good job with making priests viable without one deck to rule them all; as stated earlier, this is true for most of the other classes as well.

Hezzara posted...
f you compare Hearthstone now to Hearthstone at launch, it's basically two completely different games. Launch Hearthstone had its own set of broken things, but those were all extremely tame compared to the broken things of today.

I think comparing "current" to "former" strength of the cards is the wrong way of going about things. What matters is how you stack up against the other current cards; I'm not playing against Huntertaker decks or anything.

Hezzara posted...
We also have Priests that have Shadowform except it can be used multiple times per turn and for free, and other priests that will summon a 6 mana 4/4 along with a random 8 or 10 mana minion, and an 8 mana 4/7 that will either summon another random 8 mana minion or mind control one of your minions for free while also thinning your deck. And of course let's not forget Warlocks who can summon a Voidlord as early as turn 5, and can summon upwards of a dozen Doomguards over the course of a game without discarding a single card.

Sounds like an even game to me, with the possibility of big swing turns and strong cards duking it out in the late game. Sure it's different than before, but who wants to play the game the same way for 4 years?


The point is, the power level of cards are *incredibly* high compared to what they were at launch, and yet here we are still with the same 30 hp and 30 cards. Some power creep is inevitable, but Hearthstone's taken power creep to heart and has just gone all out with it, without doing anything to try to compensate for the power creep.

Yeah, other games like MTG has power creep without changing the base stats, but those games tend to have more interaction on your opponent's turn, particularly with things like being able to assign minions to defend and to choose when and what to counterspell on your opponent's turn. Hearthstone has none of that. Agency is entirely in the hands of the person who's turn it is, and you can't do anything but watch and hope you've laid out the board in a way they can't get lethal on you and can't mess up your plan for next turn. When there's 0 interaction with your opponent's turn like that, ramping up the power level like Hearthstone does every expansion, with no indication of Blizzard wanting to curb it back a bit, it's quickly going to get to a point where the only option to properly balance the game will be a complete revamp of the base mechanics. It's either that, or Blizzard actually takes advantage of the ability to change cards post-launch to begin systematically lowering the power level of Standard over the next few years.

User Info: redundancies

redundancies
1 month ago#19
Hezzara posted...
The point is, the power level of cards are *incredibly* high compared to what they were at launch, and yet here we are still with the same 30 hp and 30 cards. Some power creep is inevitable, but Hearthstone's taken power creep to heart and has just gone all out with it, without doing anything to try to compensate for the power creep.

The overall power level of the decks should go down with the next rotation. We are at the tail end of a "Year", and we'll be losing three expansions (well two expansions and one adventure); jades, Patches, Barnes, Raza will all be gone.

Like I said, I don't see a problem with things being different from one expansion to another, it keeps things interesting. Next expansion should give you more of what you want.
  1. Boards
  2. Hearthstone: Heroes of Warcraft
  3. Is the only way a class card can be considered balanced is if few people run it?

Report Message

Terms of Use Violations:

Etiquette Issues:

Notes (optional; required for "Other"):
Add user to Ignore List after reporting

Topic Sticky

You are not allowed to request a sticky.

  • Topic Archived