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  3. What makes FFXIV better than WoW?

User Info: __Blight__

__Blight__
3 weeks ago#71
Really just music and story. Battle system us more chaotic and that can be fun at first.
"The Emperor protects."

User Info: FlameMagician

FlameMagician
3 weeks ago#72
2DFighter84 posted...
FlameMagician posted...

Someone is forgetting that endgame content is done at a certain point...


You proved my point... endgame is done when you have high enough stats to clear it. and not a moment sooner. and given enough time, anyone will get high enough stats to clear it.

There are even in-game roadblocks that are meant to ensure you have high enough stats to clear E1s for example, before you can even queue for it. You have to be level 80 and have a 440 ilvl. This insures your stats (nothing to do with skill) falls within a range that the content was balanced around.

I was gonna make a reference to balance in fighting games vs balance in MMOs, but I can only assume based on your opinion that this game is skill based, that you don't play any actual skill based games, so you lack that point of reference. So any outside reference I make would be like arguing that fire is hotter than water, with someone who doesn't know what the word "hot" means. no offense...

FlameMagician posted...
Also why are you acting like you know what it takes to clear high end game content?

Everyone knows... it's no secret. stats + time. why are you acting like it's anything different? Rhetorical question btw. I don't expect, nor actually want, an answer.


It actually has more to do with ilvl equalization, but thanks for playing with all those little ad hominems of yours
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User Info: _Sanaki_

_Sanaki_
3 weeks ago#73
2DFighter84 posted...
FlameMagician posted...


The irony is that XIV is massively skill based


It really isn't, man. By design, it really isn't. that's a huge part of what makes the game so accessible. the lack of skill required to complete the story and even get into end game raiding. I'm kinda curious if you play video games from any skill based genre (2D Fighters, Racing, FPS, Action, etc) so that you have a basis for comparison.

FF14 is driven by stats, not skill. No matter how good a player you think you are, you'll never see a speed run where a level 1 player kills ifrit, for example, because stats are what drives the game, not player skill. And you acquire stats through time investment. it doesn't matter how good you are at the game, given enough time, anyone who plays the game will eventually get the stats required to clear.... everything. In more skill based games, it doesn't matter how long you play. You either develop the skills to beat a level/opponent, or you don't. And people develop those skills at different intervals. Stats + time don't dictate success in skill based games.


I feel like the genre has to be taken into account. While there may be exceptions I would say most MMORPGs have some degree of gating. Comparing it to a fighting game or racing game is ignoring that they’re pretty different genres. The comparison should be to the average of MMORPGs, as well as looking at the range of skill level compared to stats. I would imagine that at the appropriate range of gear and level for the content in question you can’t just brute force your way through it. That you can’t skill your way through it at level 1 doesn’t change matters to me really, especially given the genre.
I kept silent, blaming these antics on your ignorance, but I can no longer tolerate your manners!

User Info: 2DFighter84

2DFighter84
3 weeks ago#74
FlameMagician posted...

It actually has more to do with ilvl equalization, but thanks for playing with all those little ad hominems of yours


ilvl equalization is all about stats, man. you must know that. your ilvl is just a number that represents the range of stats that you have.

and, do you know what "ad hominem" means? I didn't divert the conversation away from the subject matter and onto insulting, or attacking, you (that's what it means fyi). it's a diversionary tactic. that's what makes it a logical fallacy. I didn't divert. I made a point, then gave a supporting example.

at worse, I implied that you were ignorant about a certain concept. ignorance is not an insult. It just shows where our exchange is limited because you lack an understanding of what skill based games are. if you take that as an insult, I don't mean it that way. I've currently no interest in insulting you.
2-frackin'-D: The voice of the voiceless
PSN Detrizzy MK11 - Skarlet

User Info: FlameMagician

FlameMagician
3 weeks ago#75
2DFighter84 posted...
FlameMagician posted...

It actually has more to do with ilvl equalization, but thanks for playing with all those little ad hominems of yours


ilvl equalization is all about stats, man. you must know that. your ilvl is just a number that represents the range of stats that you have.

and, do you know what "ad hominem" means? I didn't divert the conversation away from the subject matter and onto insulting, or attacking, you (that's what it means fyi). it's a diversionary tactic. that's what makes it a logical fallacy. I didn't divert. I made a point, then gave a supporting example.

at worse, I implied that you were ignorant about a certain concept. ignorance is not an insult. It just shows where our exchange is limited because you lack an understanding of what skill based games are. if you take that as an insult, I don't mean it that way. I've currently no interest in insulting you.


It's actually about an equal playing field. But by all means, act like stats clear Savage

It is an insult when used in an attempt to discredit me
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User Info: Isilia

Isilia
3 weeks ago#76
People can and have beaten this content in lower than the "gated" ilevel I hope you know. As long as you queue as a group, you don't have to hit that magical number.

Ultimate may be a better example of skill because it takes gear completely out of the equation. Memorization is a thing, but RNG makes it so you don't always have the easy result. Of course, you can also argue callouts/ACT voices, but it still requires those players to still perform optimally or fail by the end.
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User Info: Amakusa

Amakusa
3 weeks ago#77
Isilia posted...
People can and have beaten this content in lower than the "gated" ilevel I hope you know. As long as you queue as a group, you don't have to hit that magical number.

Sounds to me like you did.
I will rule the world, and find that truly good cup of coffee.

User Info: Isilia

Isilia
3 weeks ago#78
I didn't. I cannot because I'm physically incapable of doing so.
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User Info: Pancake

Pancake
3 weeks ago#79
In more skill based games, it doesn't matter how long you play. You either develop the skills to beat a level/opponent, or you don't.

i have something of an objection. i'm imagining dark souls speedruns with your descriptions, all level 1 with like, the club and hand axe and stuff - and it reminds me of something that happened while i was helping out a buddy of mine in dks2.

the plan was go kill sinh. along the way, we found another player who was max level and was trying to no-hit the same boss, on new game +7 difficulty. for reference, that's 838, and i'm 150(pvp meta) and my buddy i have no idea.

he has us watch his stream for a few minutes before getting any attempts of our own in (inexplicably). every time he'd take damage, he used a homeward bone to restart the fight. i thought it was awful to watch and eventually i got my buddy to usher him into the arena with us.

you'd expect this guy to carry us, right? in my experience, 'perfectionist' players wilt into nothing if you take them out of their vacuum, and that's what happened there. dude couldn't dodge stuff. dude whiffed on the giant dragon a ton.

my objection is that time wins in these situations and my argument is that level 1 speedruns and stuff like that show off a set of skills, but they also imply a hundred million resets. it's like never playing minesweeper unless you get that fabled dream board.

clears by themselves don't really mean much because it just takes you playing right once. consistency is a more important measure, but good luck getting the data.
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User Info: 2DFighter84

2DFighter84
3 weeks ago#80
FlameMagician posted...

It's actually about an equal playing field.

based on stats. the only way you equalize skill, is to cap it low, or remove it. you can equalize stats though.

FlameMagician posted...

It is an insult when used in an attempt to discredit me


Don't attribute motive. I've said I've no interest in insulting you. that's as far as I'm willing to go down this diversionary road.

Isilia posted...
People can and have beaten this content in lower than the "gated" ilevel I hope you know. As long as you queue as a group, you don't have to hit that magical number.


Notice how few and far between those groups are. notice as well, that the game isn't balanced around that sort of behaviour... as noted by Yoshi P. Players who clear content at lower than min ilvl for world firsts are still using stats to do what they do though. there's a certain amount of damage needed to kill each boss. no matter how good you think you are, your stats determine how much damage you're capable of, or how much damage you can take. These world first groups know that. They have a great understanding of stats in this game and apply that knowledge well.

That's why when they have lower than min ilvl for certain content, they use healer DPS to make up for the DPS loss due to the group as a whole having lower stats. It's a clever strategy they use (knowing the game isn't balanced around healer DPS) to give them the added boost to damage they need. They're basically factoring in the offensive stats of 2 players who's offense is not a part of the normal balance of the raid content. It's still all stats. There's just a clever strategy behind how they use those stats in those type of groups.

Also, there's a difference between skill and strategy that should be recognized here. in this game, we use stats along with trial and error to formulate a winning strategy to clear content. Trial and error is a very rudimentary knowledge acquisition strategy that requires conscious effort. Skill relies more on unconscious effort because we drill it basically into muscle memory, like doing a 236p motion (classic fire ball motion in 2d fighters); or knowing when fire to pull off a 360 no scope in a FPS. It comes down to drilling it until it is an unconscious sequence of actions that basically auto pilots when the right situation triggers it. It's why fighting game players are able to see and utilize 1 frame traps (1/60th of a second) because we don't have to divert conscious effort into executing the maneuvers. it's just muscle memory... aka skill. it's done without thinking about it.

This game play is so slow that, even if you did drill your rotation into muscle memory, you still are blocked, by the game, from going any faster than someone who doesn't have that skill that you've drilled yourself on. The GCD caps your speed low to eliminate skill from the equation. about the fastest you can go is probably a double weave, without affecting your next GCD. And that isn't very fast at all. it's slow enough that a person consciously thinking about each input can execute the same few button presses within that time frame. That's by design. eliminating skill from the equation to make the game more accessible.
2-frackin'-D: The voice of the voiceless
PSN Detrizzy MK11 - Skarlet
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