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  3. Using a Memorist as a Super Red Mage - An Old Topic Revisited

User Info: astrophys

astrophys
3 months ago#1
PREFACE:

Over 5 years ago, I made a post about an unconventional usage of the Memorist class to create a far more powerful variant of a red mage. ("Just for Fun - Memorist as a Super Red Mage".)

I've recently gotten back into playing Final Fantasy Dimensions again, and I was inspired to make this topic from both my own topic and @JaeromDarkwind's topic "Memorist discoveries" .

I wanted to combine JaeromDarkwind's findings and the the idea of my own topic, but rewrite it in a more "HOW-TO" Style

Note that generally speaking Recollect is regarded as most powerful for enhancing your melee fighters, rather than doing this, so I do not claim this to be optimal whatsoever. However, if you wish to try something different and get the singular most versatile caster in the game [without having to give up melee capabilities either], give this a try:

WHAT THE BUILD DOES:

Creates a character who utilizes Doublecast (accessed through Memorandom) to cast two abilities drawn from 4 different spell lists (White Magic 1-8* [see caveats], Black Magic 1-7, Summons 1-7 [i.e., all Summons], and Magic Blade [all]). As such, this character can access more spells with Doublecast than any other character.

MOREOEVER, this build ELIMINATES the luck factor of being able to draw Doublecast through Memorandom on any given turn - by following this build, you will guarantee being able to draw Doublecast 100% of the time from any Memorandom-using turn in battle.

HOW DO YOU DO THE BUILD:

Simply put, as soon as you get classes, you put a character into Red Mage and make sure that they never learn any command abilities [like Steal, Battle Arts, White (from White Mage), Summon [from Summoner], Black [from Black Mage], Focus, etc.] from Job Leveling outside of the Red Mage's own abilities up through Doublecast, then switch into Memorist thereafter.

WHY DO WE NOT WANT TO LEARN OTHER ABILITIES?

Because Memorandom generates 4 command abilities the character already knows at random each time it is used, and we want to make sure that Doublecast is among those 4. Red Mage naturally learns 4 Command Abilities on its own (Red Magic, Attune Blade, Magic Blade, and Doublecast), so we don't want to learn commands outside of Red Mage before going into Memorist.

If you job level In Memorist, I should note that you will eventually learn Memorandom itself as 5th command ability. This will be slightly detrimental to the build, because sometimes now Doublecsat will not show up immediately, with Red Magic, Attune Blade, Magic Blade, and Memorandom being the 4 chosen abilities instead. HOWEVER, as choosing Memorandom generates a new list of 4 random choices, you can keep doing this whenever you get Memorandom, and as we have only 5 command abilities and set of 4 abilities that doesn't have Doublecast will ALWAYS include Memorandom to reshuffle the choices, we STILL have a 100% guaranteed chance to get Doublecast eventually. IF you wish to avoid this issue at the cost of somewhat lower HP/MP stats, you can avoid this problem by simply stopping at Memorist Job Level 9.

WHY DOES THIS BUILD WORK?

Because when spell-sets or Doublecast are used by Memorandom, they draw upon ALL spells that belong or could belong in that spell set, regardless of spell level restrictions or having them actually equipped to you [with the exception of Dispel and Araise which must be learned through Seer, and Lv. 8 Black Magic which Warriors of Light can never obtain]. This means that every usage of Doublecast can draw upon ALL of White, Black, Summon, and Magic Blade magic. (Funnily enough, Red Magic's ability to draw on White and Black magic means that under Memorandom means that unlike the normal limitation to White and Black 1-4, Red can access White 1-8 and Black 1-7 while using Memorandom.).

User Info: astrophys

astrophys
3 months ago#2
(continued).

Therefore, you can access 4 spellsets (White 1-8 [see caveats for Lv. 8 White Magic], Black 1-7, Summon 1-7, and Magic Blade) + Doublecast all on the same character - something that would normally cost 10 Ability Slots - an impossible amount. (The most any other character can do is to pick TWO of these spellsets + Dualcast if they wanted them).

Furthermore, this build is compounded by the Memorist's ability to use Recollect to customize their stats.

Your regular Red Mage has 47 STR, 50 SPD, 47 VIT, 60 INT & MND.

Seeing that physical characters like the Dragoon have bases of 77 STR, Paladin have 80 STR, the Warrior has 83 STR, the Monk has 90 STR, and the Dark Knight has 94 STR, we see that the Red Mages' physical attacks will be fairly feeble.

As for mages (at maxed stats), a Magus can obtain 85 INT, while Seers can obtain 85 MND..... but they only get 35 in the opposite stat (35 MND for Magus, 35 INT for Seer). As such, they don't do a great job of carrying the opposite type of magic.)

Summoners in constrast have 68 MND and INT (at maxed stats), so they can carry White or Black Magic fairly reasonably... however, the Summoner also has only 26 STR, so this forsakes most of its physical attack abilities, even moreso than the Red Mage does.

ENTER MEMORIST WITH RECOLLECT

Through Memories, it is possible to obtain up to 235 stat points in allocable memories, in increments of +3, +5, or +10 depending on the memory type. Moreover, Recollect provides a base of +10 in each stat for free. The drawback is that Recollect also doesn't benefit from your character's normal inherent character-specific stat bonuses, which are worth 8 stat points in total in excess of normal class values divided between STR/SPD/VIT/INT/MND, with +0 to +5 points in each. Still, with Recollect, we can create an extremely versatile set of mixed stats that are otherwise impossible.

We just need to sacrifice something. Namely, Vitality (VIT). VIT has an extremely weak effect on damage taken except in excessive quantities that we won't concern ourselves here. Thus, you want to allocate none of your memories' stat points to Vitality. In exchange, we gain points to put into STR, INT, and MND to get a mixed attacker/healer, plus the ability to keep SPD reasonable.

How exactly you allocate them is up to you. I'll provide an example. You can choose differently.

EXAMPLE:

75 STR, 50 SPD, 10 VIT, 75 INT, 75 MND.

Now you far better STR to use Magic Blade than its native Red Mage, almost as much as a base Dragoon and only 5 points less than the base Paladin, you have comparable speed to the base red mage [and are faster than the other types of mages], and you have more INT/MND than a Summoner does to have mixed support for both Black/damage summons and White/Healing Summons.

CAVEATS:

1.) You can't learn skills outside Red Mage and Memorist if you want to preserve 100% Doublecast accessibility through Memorandom.

2.) You can't equip passive abilities like Magic Font or Double Hand to further improve your damage - so your magic still won't be as powerful as a more dedicated Doublecast + Magic Font + one of White/Black/Summon user, given their bonus from Magic Font. But you will be FAR more versatile they they are. You also can't equip INT+20%, MND+20%, etc, (though these are most likely superseded by Magic Font and wouldn't be equipped anyways when given the choice of those or Magic Font+ Doublecast)

3.) This gives up on the generally more powerful options to dump memories into STR/SPD for Recollecting Final Heaven Users.

4.) For this build, you can't learn Araise from Seer as you'd have learned White Magic 8 in the process of doing so, which ruins the 100% reliability of Dualcast

5.) Limited F-ability access on this character [but if you learn the ability and run away before getting JP, you can get some)
(edited 3 months ago)

User Info: astrophys

astrophys
3 months ago#3
PROs:

1.). A different and much more varied way to use Memorist than just Final Heaven recollect spamming.

2.) Can use all of regular physical attacks, white/black/summon/magic blade + doublecast all on the same character at once (and for white/black/summon/magic, in any combination within the doublecast), and with 100% reliability of accessing these options with each turn that you use Memorandom.

Pretty much, one of, if the the, most versatile characters possible in the entire game.

NOTE: [You can also use Attune Blade as an option, as it will always become available from Memorandom from the process of learning Doublecast, but generally you'll want to always pick Dualcast from Memorandom, so this is not an important part of the build]

3.) Because you're a Memorist, you can equip almost anything in the game, except Holy and Dark Swords.... including Longinus, a Spear that grants +10 INT/MND and hastens casting speed, but normally would not be too useful for spell casting (except for faster casts of F-abilities), as the class that use spears generally have very poor INT/MND and thus don't want to cast in the first place.

4.). Extremely straightforward job build - Just Red Mage (max for Doublecast) --> Memorist.

WHO CAN DO THIS:

Sol, Sarah, or Aigis.

Sol and Sarah don't start with any active abilities (Sol has the passive Counter, and Sarah has none). Aigis only has Cover [Passive], and Red Lv. 1 (which you learn as part of the build anyways, so its not an impediment).

WHO CAN'T DO THIS:

Dusk + All Dark Warriors

Dusk starts with White Magic already learned as a command. This messes up the 100% reliability of accessing Doublecast [instead its about 80% reliable]. Dark Warriors can't use Memorist anyways.

If anyone wants to make comments, feel free to do so. Hope this is helpful or inspiring to other players.
(edited 3 months ago)

User Info: Freedom2020

Freedom2020
2 months ago#4
When I was experimenting with the memorist, Sarah's Red Magic didn't include Summon until she reached Level 1 in the Summoner job, thus adding it to her list of chosen abilities. So if the ideal memorist were to gain access to all 3 forms of higher-level magic, there would be 6 abilities for the 4 slots, not 5 minimum of abilities that would be gained from mastering the Red Mage job: Red Magic, Attune Blade, Magic Blade, Doublecast, Memorandum, and then add Summon.

Ultimately, in my case, the Memorist job was a waste. I decided that for my 2nd playthrough I would have at least 1 character master every job, and I used Sol as the memorist, but he had dabbled extensively in every job possible because changing from one job to another and getting F-Abilities is what makes the game so fun. In that same playthrough, Sol mastered the Red Mage, Black Mage, and Seer jobs. It goes without saying that on the postgame superbosses Sol was a Level 20 Seer with doublecast and magic font in his ability spots.

User Info: astrophys

astrophys
2 months ago#5
Are you sure about requiring Lv 1 Summoner? @Freedom2020

JaeromDarkwind reported in their topic that
4: Doublecast allows you to cast ALL spells available to the entire Light Warrior party, no other class levels required. This includes White 7, Black 7, all Summons (including dark worlds once you join the parties), and all Magic Blades. It also includes Holy (but not Meteo). This is a Memorist property, not a Doublecast glitch--when accessing ANY spellcasting through !Memorandom, you get all applicable spells. !Red Magic allows access to White 8 and Black 7, for example. Doublecast can access all spell LISTS by default, so in !Memorandom it can access all spells.


I also asked them by direct message to verify that their characters had just been Red Mage -> Memorist except where otherwise noted, and they claimed they had.

So there is currently a contradiction between your reports. May be @JaeromDarkwind got it wrong, maybe you're confused, and I'm currently confused.

I know that in my posts 5 years ago I used to be under a similar impression as you, that you needed 1 level in summoner, but separate reports have indicated that you do gain access to summons after all, including from a person who ran just Red -> Memorist.

My own Memorist 5 years ago was imperfect, in that they learned a few unneeded abilities including Battle Arts, but still had double cast, so they could do a bunch of the double casting from this build, but not with perfect reliability. That's part of why I found JaeromDarkwind's results so interesting - they had apparently made a pure Red Mage --> Memorist and perfected the double casting.

I wonder if the key is the idea of "Red Magic" vs. "Doublecast". I'm under the impression that Summons show up within the Doublecast command but not the Red Magic command. Did you mean to say "Sarah's Red Magic didn't include Summon until she reached Level 1 in the Summoner job", or did you actually mean to say ""Sarah's **Doublecast** didn't include Summon until she reached Level 1 in the Summoner job""? Could this account for the discrepancy?

I do agree with you that a chief drawback of the build [regardless of which way Summon works] is that you don't get to experiment with the character or learn F-abilities in the way that the others do, as I noted in the caveats section.

User Info: Freedom2020

Freedom2020
2 months ago#6
Thanks for pointing that out, astrophys. I had a terrible typo. What I meant to type was "Sarah didn't get summon until she reached level 1 in the summoner job, even though I had changed her to the Summoner job briefly on a few occasions." Having pointed out that mistake, the point would be valid: If you really want to minimize the risk of your memorist not being offered Doublecast before you press "Memorandum," your best bet is to keep your Memorist with the Red Mage job almost entirely and not let him reach Level 1 in any other job.

User Info: astrophys

astrophys
2 months ago#7
@Freedom2020 I'll eventually be able to double check first-hand, rather than relying on reports such as those I cited from @JaeromDarkwind - because in a fresh file [which I started as I felt like playing Dimensions from the beginning anyways] I've purposefully kept Sarah from reaching level 1 in any job except Red Mage. Thus, she'll have the minimum number of commands for use as a memoirist, and I'll be able to confirm how it works for myself.

Oh, and did you mean did't get Summon as a separate command (i.e.: Red Magic, Double Cast, Summon, Attune Blade as a sample of four options showing up from Memorandom), or did you mean that Summons didn't show up within the Double Cast command until you had 1 level of summoner? (i.e. Memorandom generates Red, Attune Bade, Magic Blade, and Double Cast, and then picking Double Cast from that list would grant you access to Summons as options for Doublecasting). Just to make absolutely sure of what you mean to say.
(edited 2 months ago)

User Info: Freedom2020

Freedom2020
2 months ago#8
Sorry about the confusion. I didn't mean to mention Doublecast at all. What I meant to say is that I didn't get the summon command as a separate possible command until I leveled Sarah up to a Level 1 Summoner.
Just switching Sarah to a summoner for one battle didn't make it a possible memorist command.

User Info: astrophys

astrophys
2 months ago#9
Okay. Thanks for the clarification. I made an incorrect assumption about what you meant as my posts 1-3 were dealing so heavily with the idea of getting a Memorist "Super Red Mage" who could doublecast White, Black, Magic Blade, and Summon that I thought you were saying that that wouldn't work after all.

Whereas with your clarification you were just talking about the separate Summon command.

User Info: astrophys

astrophys
2 months ago#10
Well, I've completed "The Memorist" (Chapter 3, Part One) with Sol's party, so I'll be able to first-hand confirm the behavior of the memorist dualcasting rules after I beat "The Dancer" (Chapter 3, Part Two) with Nacht's party so that I regain control of Sol's party again.

Well, that and gain one more job level for Sarah [my chosen Memorist mage for this file], who is currently at Job Level 19/20 in Red Mage.
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