Why Aizen and Ichigo weren't as strong as some think.

Since the topic where this post originated has been closed, I reiterate, Jaded Memory, where did it say that everyone said Aizen reached the pinnacle of Shingami powers?

As for Aizen and Ichigo not being so strong.

Ichigo Vs. Renji - Got his ass kicked and Renji was going to deliver the final blow when Ichigo miraculously pulled out an attack that broke Zabimaru. Ichigo would've died but Hollow Ichigo's mask absorbed the majority of the damage.

Ichigo Vs. Kenpachi - Again, Kenpachi killed him(some say he didn't but based on the fact its said in a translation, and in another, its his reiatsu that ceased, which only happens when he dies as he cannot control his reiatsu, which is why he couldn't hide his location from Uryu when they first met and he thought he was at maximum all the time). Kenpachi never fought at full strength, even after he took his eyepatch off as he was weakened from blood loss and he didn't use Kendo and took his eyepatch off when they first met. Again, Hollow Ichigo's mask absorbed the attacks from Kenpachi so he didn't die.

Ichigo Vs. Byakuya - Byakuya had a cut on his hand when he was delivering the final blow before Hollow Ichigo saved him and in the end, Ichigo couldn't even stand without leaning on his sword.

Ichigo Vs. Grimmjow - Grimmjow laughed a Ichigo's Getsuga. Grimmjow shattered Ichigo's mask and was going to deliver the final blow when Ichigo, who was breathing heavily, did an asspull and miraculously came out the winner.

Ichigo vs. Nnoitora - Couldn't do anything but that was because he was so exhausted from Grimmjow.

Ichigo Vs. Ulquiorra - Defeated with ease only to be revived by Orihime and then he got a hole in his chest before Hollow Ichigo took over and dominated Ulquiorra.

Aizen Vs. Hitsugaya - Hitsugaya stabbs Aizen, only for it to be an illusion and Aizen stands behind him as he falls to the ground from the sneak attack.

Aizen Vs. Komamura - Same as Hitsugaya, except instead of a stab, he tries to use Bankai and Aizen uses Hado 90 as he was looking at the illusion. Otherwise, he could've dodged it as Hado 90 has a small range.

Aizen Vs. Ichigo - Ichigo was so weak from his fight with Byakuya and Aizen stopped his Bankai, which increases his speed, with a finger.

Aizen Vs. Captains and Visoreds - Aizen took out a half dead Komamura, Lisa & Love?, but it was revealed to be Momo who looked like Aizen due to his hypnosis. Aizen was on the ground the whole time with the Lieutenants and takes them out. Hitsugaya loses it and charges in, along with Shinji, Soifon & Kyoraku who are all severely weakened, but Aizen just dodges and slashes them and they fall.

Aizen Vs. Yama - Aizen used WW to seal Yama's Zanpakuto cause he couldn't overcome that power(admits it too). Yama uses Hado 96 and Aizen runs away and emerges from some smoke and is wounded by Ichigo, only for the Hogyoku to heal him.

Aizen Vs. Isshin - Isshin, who is rusty at being a Shinigami and not using Shikai of Bankai, pushed Aizen to the very limit of his Shingami powers(Aizen says so), before the Hogyoku transforms him. Even transformed, Aizen didn't kill him, only blew him away, along with Kisuke and Yoruichi, using the Hogyoku's power.

Aizen Vs. Gin - Gin uses Bankai and stabs him and his body fades away, but the Hogyoku regenerates him and teleports him to Gin, where he slashes and rips his arm off.

Can you see where I'm seeing things from? In each instance for Ichigo, he gets his ass kicked and either does an asspull or Hollow Ichigo/Zangetsu steps in to save him. Or Kenpachi and Byakuya. For Aizen, its illusions, weakened opponents and Hogyoku that leaves him standing. Final Aizen and Final Ichigo is the only fight where no illusions are used and Ichigo isn't weakened and Ichigo doesn't do an asspull and need saving.

ichigo does use a lot of hax, that is apparent.

aizen's hypnosis is his power, it is his strength, so saying aizen is weak without his hypnosis is silly because that is his ability that he uses willingly unlike ichigo and his hollow powers. though yes, i admit that aizen should have died against gin, have no idea what happened there. hogyoku was hax.

this topic is so beyond pointless.

Its like saying take everything away from a character to make them not themselves

So true but like Goku on DBZ and Yugi on Yugioh the asspull is the signature move of heroes. Like Power Rangers Gi joe and transformers hope love and goody goody must win. Aizen isn't weak but tactful. His only asspull is hogyoku. Ichigo has 2 asspulls. But atleast in history and DW Cao Cao had no asspulls nor Lu Bu or Zhang Fei and they knew what true winning is.

as far as proof about aizen powers, before he even became a captain he was very powerful, where he could easy block lvl 88 attacks, with a "chantless dankuu" as they called it.

Aizen Vs. Komamura- komamura had time to look at aizen next to him, he decided to look away again, kinda stupid of him if you ask me. he saw where aizen was, knew aizen was close to him yet did nothing to dodge.

aizen vs ichigo- how much weaker was he? also the 2nd time they met, he proved to be much faster than ichigo in his base form, despite ichigo getting his speed boost from his mask.

as for the visoreds and captains, shinji wasnt severely weakened, but if he was weaker it was because of what aizen did to him, same with kyoraku. he wasnt even taking the fight seriously and he was easily handling them.

as far as isshin goes, i dont remember seeing anything where aizen said he was pushed to his peak. also aizen displayed his power and speed throughout the entire fight, he didnt exactly "try" to kill anyone, it was the fact that when he said the fight was going to end, he ended it. there was nothing anyone could do.

its kinda pointless to say it wasnt his power, the hougyoku was a part of him, so it was basically his power. at that point you are basically saying "if aizen didnt have all his powers he wouldnt be as strong".

I'm pretty sure Aizen must have some strength. Easily taking on all captains after revealing his Hinamori illusions, even if most of them are weakened already, isn't something most captains can do. I'm pretty sure Isshin is a hell lot more powerful than Aizen though.

@king_madden

Isshin asked what was wrong with Aizen, and Aizen replied that he is at the end of his rope / limits of his Shinigami self.

Aizen should have died to Shinji TBH, but he decided to be some moron who did not use hollow powers to deliver a full powered attack.

illusionturtle posted...
I'm pretty sure Aizen must have some strength. Easily taking on all captains after revealing his Hinamori illusions, even if most of them are weakened already, isn't something most captains can do. I'm pretty sure Isshin is a hell lot more powerful than Aizen though.

@king_madden

Isshin asked what was wrong with Aizen, and Aizen replied that he is at the end of his rope / limits of his Shinigami self.

Aizen should have died to Shinji TBH, but he decided to be some moron who did not use hollow powers to deliver a full powered attack.

wasnt that more of his body transforming to the next stage rather than "being pushed". like after his shell stage, the next stage triggered by itself, like it was just time for the next stage. i only read the manga, but i saw isshin land that initial attack, then after that nothing, and they barely showed their fight. did they show isshin getting the upper hand in the anime?

also shinji wouldnt have killed aizen anyway, since he was already under hypnosis.

Aizen blocked a swing from Komamura with one hand before he took him down with the Kido. He blocked a level 88 Kido fired off by the Captain of the Kido Corps with a single, casual, incantationless Danku. Ichigo may have been weakened by his fight with Byakuya, but he wasn't that much weaker, since he was still able to maintain Bankai. Ichigo's Bankai speed and cutting strength are very high, yet Aizen blocked it with a finger. Then before Ichigo could get away, he damn near cut him in half. Every single available Captain felt it necessary to show up when told of his betrayal - including Yamamoto, who didn't even feel the Espada were enough of a threat for him to engage them personally. His base stats are also on-par with Yamamoto's.

Ichigo turned up at the execution hill and destroyed the massive pillar thing, shocking even the Captains. He then proceeded to defeat three Vice Captains in Shikai with nothing but his bare hands, before any of them could react. He was not killed by Kenpachi - the only translations around all say that his reiatsu was dwindling, then suddenly exploded again. Ichigo's Hollow is a part of Ichigo's soul, meaning it's power is his power - claiming that isn't his power is the same as claiming Zangetsu isn't his power, which is it.

Jaded_Memory posted...
Aizen blocked a swing from Komamura with one hand before he took him down with the Kido. He blocked a level 88 Kido fired off by the Captain of the Kido Corps with a single, casual, incantationless Danku. Ichigo may have been weakened by his fight with Byakuya, but he wasn't that much weaker, since he was still able to maintain Bankai. Ichigo's Bankai speed and cutting strength are very high, yet Aizen blocked it with a finger. Then before Ichigo could get away, he damn near cut him in half. Every single available Captain felt it necessary to show up when told of his betrayal - including Yamamoto, who didn't even feel the Espada were enough of a threat for him to engage them personally. His base stats are also on-par with Yamamoto's.

Ichigo turned up at the execution hill and destroyed the massive pillar thing, shocking even the Captains. He then proceeded to defeat three Vice Captains in Shikai with nothing but his bare hands, before any of them could react. He was not killed by Kenpachi - the only translations around all say that his reiatsu was dwindling, then suddenly exploded again. Ichigo's Hollow is a part of Ichigo's soul, meaning it's power is his power - claiming that isn't his power is the same as claiming Zangetsu isn't his power, which is it.

Yeah he blocked his swing, but due to hypnosis, Aizen landed that Kido cause he was confused by what was going on. I've said it in another post, but as long as you know Danku, you can block any Kido, 89 and below, as stated by Byakuya against Zommari. So take a weak Shinigami who knows Danku, and a Captain lvl. opponent who uses 89 or below, and the weak Shinigami will be protected cause its designed to stop 89 and below. Also, Kido isn't equal to the amount of power you have. Its just knowledge to use it. Tessai and Hatchi aren't powerful, but they are well versed in Kido spells. If it was, then Rukia wouldn't be able to use 73. It implies she's stronger than Renji who has only been able to use 31 or 33-Shakkaho. Or Tessai would be the most powerful cause he used 99 while Aizen only did 90.

Grimmjow said he only had average speed and his Getsuga is still very weak in Bankai, so his cutting strentgh isn't high. Not much weaker? He couldn't even stand on his own two feet at the end of his fight with Byakuya. He had the minimal amount to be in Bankai.
They were shocked because they didn't think a Ryoka could do that, not because he was super powerful. Translations are translations, so they aren't 100% accurate to the japanese, but Ichigo can't hide his reiatsu. Its constantly released. Its been said, so when his reiatsu disappeared in one of the translations I've seen, what conclusion is there? He was dead. Plus the other one where it said that kid whose pulse had disappeared, also means he died. Also in the anime, Kenpachi asked Ichigo how he revived himself in japanese and how he did you come back from the dead in english.

Yes, the hollow is part of his soul because he was born with both, but just because he has it, doesn't mean he controls it. Afterall, when Ichigo "defeated" his hollow to get his mask, he said if he wanted to control his power, not to get himself killed before they met again. Its like an independent power living inside him. If its his power, why can't he control it prior to Final Ichigo? Hollow Ichigo would appear to save him before he would regain control of his body several times. If every zanpakuto is the Shingami's power, why do they need to know its name before they can do Shikai and converse with it to attain Bankai? Or overcome the hollow inside them to attain a mask?