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User Info: DTaeKim

DTaeKim
11 years ago#11
I might as well explain why Sami is ranked higher than Max. You know the importance of first-strike. In most situations, two competing units will have the same movement, which means a stalemate. Using Infantry allows you to push forward without fear of losing first-strike, because few units have the capability of OHKO Infantry on any defensive terrain. If you can OHKO Infantry, you have a slight advantage, but only if you have enough units waiting to break through and punish the units behind that Infantry wall. Herein lies the main problem: Max needs Anti-Air units to OHKO an Infantry. Sami can produce an Infantry and Tank with the same amount of funds. You can make the argument that Max will have a Tank after the Anti-Air breaks through, but that's 15000G of funding for two units, while Sami can have an Infantry and two Tanks for the same funds. You can add more units to even the odds for Max, but you cannot ignore the fact Sami will probably have the same units and then some.
Dum spiro, spero.
As long as I breathe, I hope.

User Info: lil_literalist

lil_literalist
11 years ago#12
That tactic can be used by any CO. Yes, it can be. Sami just does it better. And unles you have a wall of 100% infantry, or a map with lots of choke points (which we've already established that Sami is better on), the other CO will only go around, or kill an infantry with two units. Yes, it may be a bit costly if they are mechs. But when you come down to a tank vs tank battle, the first striker will win. That is, unless Max has his CO power going (in which case it will be equal damage. How does your CO power work out?).

Again, those are just using the right strategy. But that is also assuming the sort of maps that they are playing on. Don't forget that Max has superior aircraft, also. In fact, his aircraft are one of his main strengths. His aircraft are even better than Eagle's (only ones that are better are Kanbei's aircraft and Sensei's copters, and Sturm is tied with Max), and even copters are nothing to sneeze at, if you have the right balance of units, or use them against the right units (like infantry, regardless of whose they are).
And...
You didn't address aircraft at all. If there is an airport, then any map for Max is an open map. And don't underestimate Max's CO powers. They can be charged quickly, and they are pretty fearsome if you have more than a few units on the map.
"Yodas constantly levitating himself around his opponent in circles, becoming a vortex of green lethality."
"We like to call that jumping."

User Info: DTaeKim

DTaeKim
11 years ago#13
That tactic can be used by any CO. Yes, it can be. Sami just does it better. And unles you have a wall of 100% infantry, or a map with lots of choke points (which we've already established that Sami is better on), the other CO will only go around, or kill an infantry with two units. Yes, it may be a bit costly if they are mechs. But when you come down to a tank vs tank battle, the first striker will win. That is, unless Max has his CO power going (in which case it will be equal damage. How does your CO power work out?).

The wall is indeed comprised of Infantry, and it's not harder to create than you think.

http://www.warsworldnews.com/index.php?page=olafschair/2006-10-04.php

The point is, Sami will never leave her stronger units undefended by a wall of Infantry, or most COs for that matter. Unless Max can break through the Infantry in one hit, his units will be shelled by the Artillery or Tanks behind said wall. Then the wall marches forward, and the cycle repeats itself. Destroying an Infantry with two units plays to that strategy, and since you have inferior numbers, you will eventually be pushed back.

Max's COP definitely works in his favor. Assuming there are no other units, Max wins. However, this is not a bubble. There will be other units in the mix. You can guarantee that your opponent is conscious of Max's movement bonus during his powers, and will adjust his strategy as his power approaches.

I am not ending the battle before the Max player has a chance to come back. I am saying that said Max player is going to have an uphill battle coming back assuming the two players are of equal skill, because Sami will have a funding advantage and the superior indirect units.

To address your restated point, I'm going to simply repost what I said earlier.

However, these tiers do not consider the map, only CO statistics. We all know that the map has the greatest effect on the CO choice, and obviously Max will be far better on open maps than Sami. The list suggests that on most maps, Sami would be the better option than Max assuming two equally skilled players.

As for his powers, there's nothing special about Max's powers. They don't charge any faster than other COs. The more important bonus with Max's COP is the movement, and unless he has some Anti-Air ready to bust that wall, he can't do much.
Dum spiro, spero.
As long as I breathe, I hope.

User Info: lil_literalist

lil_literalist
11 years ago#14
Around day 8 or 9, I had the wall established.
This is competitive advance wars, and he didn't get it built that quickly. If the opponent had built any aircraft, they could have flanked that easily. What were they doing, building neotanks before a few copters? Oh, wait. He built one copter.

And please note that this is Andy that he is going against. Andy's CO powers don't do him any good if the opposing artillery can finish his units off before he can heal them. Max, however, or most other COs with damage bonuses, would have been able to bust through the line and wreak havoc.

You can guarantee that your opponent is conscious of Max's movement bonus during his powers, and will adjust his strategy as his power approaches.
And what if Max chooses not to use it as soon as it comes up? What if he just pushes back the line of units every turn? When will you take a stand? But, moving on...

As for his powers, there's nothing special about Max's powers. They don't charge any faster than other COs. The more important bonus with Max's COP is the movement, and unless he has some Anti-Air ready to bust that wall, he can't do much.
Hello? Where have you missed my main point? All Max needs to do is bust one hole in that wall. One anti-air is all that he needs, and then his tanks can wreak havoc on the artillery (and in this situation, they will have fairly balanced amounts of units). Unless the line is 6-8 spaces back, Max's tanks can tear it apart, due to his OHKO (unless they're on defensive terrain).

However, these tiers do not consider the map, only CO statistics. We all know that the map has the greatest effect on the CO choice, and obviously Max will be far better on open maps than Sami. The list suggests that on most maps, Sami would be the better option than Max assuming two equally skilled players.
Where did you get these statistics? Which statistics did you use? What did you (not) factor in?
About Boba Fett: "He was cool in ESB. Like a stormtrooper that could shoot straight." -Drunk Cobra

User Info: DTaeKim

DTaeKim
11 years ago#15
Hello? Where have you missed my main point? All Max needs to do is bust one hole in that wall. One anti-air is all that he needs, and then his tanks can wreak havoc on the artillery (and in this situation, they will have fairly balanced amounts of units). Unless the line is 6-8 spaces back, Max's tanks can tear it apart, due to his OHKO (unless they're on defensive terrain).

You're correct. Max's COP will allow his Tanks to OHKO an Artillery assuming no terrain. He gets 98%, which drops to 88% with one star.

Since we're going to assume he's Max instead of Andy, let us assume he has five more Tanks instead of three Infantry, three Artillery units, and a Rocket unit. Now, since you are adamant on having his units close to Jess' line, we will place them four spaces away from Jess' Infantry. Max will use his COP, because if he were to attack without the COP, he would only be able to destroy the two Infantry on roads with the Anti-Air and the Infantry on plains with the Neotank. From there, he can attack three of the four Artillery, but he will not be able to do more damage because he cannot OHKO the other Infantry, unless you decide to break the wall down further and open yourself to the counterattack.

Assuming Max uses his COP and his units are four spaces away from Jess' Infantry, he will have three squares that are within his attack range (since one square is occupied by the Infantry). He destroys two Infantry on roads with Anti-Air, and he can choose to attack another Infantry with the Neotank or attack the opposing Neotank instead. He can destroy the four Artillery with four of his Tanks, leaving two Tanks to attack two other units, which cannot be OHKOed. The total casualty count would be two Infantry, a wounded Neotank, four Artillery, two wounded Infantry, and one wounded Tank.

What does Jess have to counter? Three healthy Tanks, one wounded Neotank, one healthy Neotank, one wounded Tank, and nine healthy Infantry. She also has a SCOP charged after the attack. She could simply attack and deal as much damage as possible while moving her Infantry in the way of Max's reinforcements, cutting off the six Tanks and Neotank. It would be a painful battle, but she can recover because she still outnumbers Max overall.

Now, this was assuming we were given the situation above and that half of Jess' army was on the northern front. It would be a completely different story if the northern army was on the same front as the southern army. That would add four Tanks, one Artillery, eight more Infantry, and two APCs, along with one charged SCOP. Max would have eight Infantry, one healthy Neotank, and two Tanks as reinforcements, assuming no additional units are built by either side.

It's evident Jess still outnumbers Max despite the fact her line was broken. If her northern army was present in the Infantry wall, Max's units would be hammered by an Overdrive army, and Max doesn't have much in reinforcements afterwards. This is just from the above situation however, but the longer Max lets his opponent accumulate units, the less of a chance he has from coming back.

We assumed all match-ups were without any terrain. The second those Artillery have one terrain star, Max can no longer OHKO the Artillery, which would open up the lines Jess has set up. If Max wanted to play it safe, he could wait for his SCOP, which would grant him two movement and higher firepower, but that's his SCOP and he would have to take a considerable hit to his army before his SCOP is charged. In the meantime, the opponent can push his Infantry/Artillery line forward and Max will need to keep his army at least three squares away. If Rockets are in the equation, Max will have a more difficult time inflicting damage with the COP/SCOP because his units are farther back.
Dum spiro, spero.
As long as I breathe, I hope.

User Info: DTaeKim

DTaeKim
11 years ago#16
In summary, Max will be outnumbered by the Infantry/Artillery wall. The sheer numbers he has to fight again gives Max a disadvantage, and he cannot match the opponent in numbers with an Infantry/Tank wall because it would give the opponent another Infantry to use. Max cannot use the Infantry/Artillery wall because of his indirect penalty. His powers even the odds for one or two days or buy him some time, but if he cannot keep the pressure, his opponent will regroup because of the Infantry wall blocking Max from progressing.

As for the airport, B-copters are thwarted by Anti-Air units. The price of a B-copter also hurts, because one can purchase an Anti-Air and Infantry for the price of one B-copter, the ability to flank or not.

The reason why Max is lower on the tiers is because he is consistently outnumbered. It does not mean Max will lose against Sami every time. I am simply stating that Max will have a harder time.

Where did you get these statistics? Which statistics did you use? What did you (not) factor in?

We're using CO stats. Nothing else.
Dum spiro, spero.
As long as I breathe, I hope.

User Info: lil_literalist

lil_literalist
11 years ago#17
So all that you're using are the CO units stats? Their offense and defense, and that's it? In that case, how are you rating the CO and SCO powers, and how are you weighting them? Can you please show me an example of how the CO stats were calculated? Say, for Colin?

You may want to read what you put in the article a bit more carefully. If your argument is to be based solely on this map, in this situation, then it is flawed in several main ways.

1. The article says that you were already winning in the north. If you are basing part of your argument on this, then you are basing your argument on the your skill.
2. The enemy doesn't have any AA units. Certainly, if Max was playing instead of Andy, he would have been wiser to have exchanged a neotank for a bomber. Aircraft have a large movement range, and no movement penalties (except in wheather). You can keep them safely out of the range of AA and missile units until you can destroy them with other units (or even destroy other units with the bombers to allow you access to them).
3. The Andy player in the map is poorly suited to begin a rush. His tanks are in the rear, bogged behind other units. Your main victory in this map was because of the northern diversion (which you handled very well, without the wall of infantry), and his confusion and inability to deal with your wall.

And you stop evading my comments about Max's superior air force. You talked about his copters, but we know the weaknesses of them. What about his bombers and fighters? Take into account the strategy that I talked about in #2 point.

Actually, you don't have to do another rebuttal round. I think that I'll concede your argument that Sami is better than Max. But I want to ask you if I did a good job in defending Max. If I did, then maybe Max is not as bad as the tiers suggest. Good debate.

Oh, I would like to see how the tiers were calculated, if you can find it.
About Boba Fett: "He was cool in ESB. Like a stormtrooper that could shoot straight." -Drunk Cobra

User Info: DTaeKim

DTaeKim
11 years ago#18
So all that you're using are the CO units stats? Their offense and defense, and that's it? In that case, how are you rating the CO and SCO powers, and how are you weighting them? Can you please show me an example of how the CO stats were calculated? Say, for Colin?

There is nothing special about these calculations. With regards to CO powers, we simply determine the CO's stats during the activation of these powers and/or its effects on the battlefield.

Refer to this FAQ: http://www.gamefaqs.com/portable/gbadvance/file/589391/24202

1. The article says that you were already winning in the north. If you are basing part of your argument on this, then you are basing your argument on the your skill.

I'm only using the current situation. Actually, the map was at a stalemate until I poured more units in the northern front and the opponent was slow to act on that.

2. The enemy doesn't have any AA units. Certainly, if Max was playing instead of Andy, he would have been wiser to have exchanged a neotank for a bomber. Aircraft have a large movement range, and no movement penalties (except in wheather). You can keep them safely out of the range of AA and missile units until you can destroy them with other units (or even destroy other units with the bombers to allow you access to them).

A Bomber would do little good because Fighters beat them six ways to Sunday. You could make the argument that you can build Fighters to escort the Bomber, but you would have a Bomber and Fighter to two Fighters. Actually, Bombers are rarely used due to their price and vulnerability to Fighters and Anti-Air units.

3. The Andy player in the map is poorly suited to begin a rush. His tanks are in the rear, bogged behind other units. Your main victory in this map was because of the northern diversion (which you handled very well, without the wall of infantry), and his confusion and inability to deal with your wall.

In my wall of text, I adjusted the position of the Max player to position his Tanks as close to the wall without endangering his units.

And you stop evading my comments about Max's superior air force. You talked about his copters, but we know the weaknesses of them. What about his bombers and fighters? Take into account the strategy that I talked about in #2 point.

As I mentioned earlier, Bombers are overpriced and relatively underused. Most air battles consist of B-copter harassment and Fighter superiority. Max's Fighters are the king of the skies if he gets the first strike, which is a rare occasion (use of COP/opponent mistake).

Actually, you don't have to do another rebuttal round. I think that I'll concede your argument that Sami is better than Max. But I want to ask you if I did a good job in defending Max. If I did, then maybe Max is not as bad as the tiers suggest. Good debate.

Since we were theory-crafting, you did fine, though your arguments are the same arguments I've seen before with Max. Since the tiers were based on online matches on a website that simulates Advance Wars, it's hard to convince the people who composed the tiers list that Max is a better CO than the ones above him.

The tiers do not mean Max is a bad CO. It means that it will be somewhat harder for Max to win a match against the above COs based on the current meta-game. Give Max an open map, he will be a better CO.

Oh, I would like to see how the tiers were calculated, if you can find it.

You will have to ask someone else. As far as I understand, it was composed by comparing the results of a multitude of online matches.
Dum spiro, spero.
As long as I breathe, I hope.

User Info: Tinto

Tinto
11 years ago#19
When you regard that tier list in the second post, are you basing it on AW2 or AWDS. I think the topic creator was referring to AW2 when he asked, and there are more than a few differences between AW2 and AWDS CO's.

User Info: Xenesis Xenon

Xenesis Xenon
11 years ago#20
It's based on AW2.
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