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User Info: Warning_Cmexy

Warning_Cmexy
11 years ago#1
Any tiers for this game?
Eee_Cee Owned my ass in the guru ;-; Good Job!
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Board_Eight_2/index.php?act=idx

User Info: DTaeKim

DTaeKim
11 years ago#2
This is from AWBW. I've eliminated the AWDS COs from the list.

Broken
Sturm
Grit
Kanbei
Colin
Hachi
Sensei

Top
Sami

High
Lash
Eagle
Nell

Mid
Sonja
Andy
Hawke
Adder

Low
Drake
Olaf
Jess
Max
Flak
Dum spiro, spero.
As long as I breathe, I hope.

User Info: MirrormanEXE

MirrormanEXE
11 years ago#3
Sorry, but Tiers are a pile of crap.

It's all opinionated. Lots of people would say Grit is middle or lower owing to his indirects being the only strong units of his army. I would personally place Hawke a lot higher due to all of his units having increased stats, but there you go. That's just my opinion.
Sturm - Advance Wars II: (After destroying the deathray)
The bastards STOLE mah pies!!! I wants mah pies!!

User Info: DTaeKim

DTaeKim
11 years ago#4
Tiers are based on statistics, not opinions.
Dum spiro, spero.
As long as I breathe, I hope.

User Info: lil_literalist

lil_literalist
11 years ago#5
Statistics don't matter that much, in this. Max is in the lowest tier, yet as long as you use him correctly, he is one of the best COs in the game. Most of Sami's units are bad, yet you gave her a high rank. However, Sami's best time is in the beginning, and if there is a prolonged game, then it's more of a struggle for her to survive.
"Yodas constantly levitating himself around his opponent in circles, becoming a vortex of green lethality."
"We like to call that jumping."

User Info: DTaeKim

DTaeKim
11 years ago#6
Max suffers because of his indirect penalty, which forces him to retreat if he cannot push his units through the opponent's choke. The Infantry/Artillery wall is the main reason why Max is low tier, because he cannot win an indirect battle.

Sami is ranked high because of her incredible soldier statistics, capture rate, and transport. Whoever wins the capture phase has a significant advantage, and Sami is one of the best COs in the game at the capture phase. Her SCOP allows you to capture even more territory and push out the high tech units while your opponent is behind monetary.
Dum spiro, spero.
As long as I breathe, I hope.

User Info: lil_literalist

lil_literalist
11 years ago#7
Again, those are just using the right strategy. But that is also assuming the sort of maps that they are playing on. Don't forget that Max has superior aircraft, also. In fact, his aircraft are one of his main strengths. His aircraft are even better than Eagle's (only ones that are better are Kanbei's aircraft and Sensei's copters, and Sturm is tied with Max), and even copters are nothing to sneeze at, if you have the right balance of units, or use them against the right units (like infantry, regardless of whose they are).

I concede your points on Sami, although simply because she can gain an early advantage doesn't mean that she is capable of keeping that advantage, especially on larger maps where the enemy is able to scrape up enough funds for several Anti-Airs, with a mix of infantry. Also, her aircraft are inferior and her only decent ship is the most expensive one, which can be taken down easily by a sub or aircraft.

So really, Sami is only good on smaller land maps with no airports or few cities, and Max is only bad on maps which Sami is good on.

If you take a look at their (S)CO powers, then you'll see that Sami comes out ahead, or so it would seem. He CO power is practically useless; if her mechs could be doing any damage, then they would be doing it regardless of the CO power. Her SCO takes extremely long to cahrge up (which is NOT useful in the shorter battles that she would prefer), and If she is in a position to where Victory March can be decisive, then all she is doing is speeding up the inevitable. And it only affects her infantry and mechs, which usually don't win wars all on their own. At least, not fully-developed wars.

Max's powers both do the same thing, except he gets huge bonuses with almost every unit that he has on the field. Even his regular CO power can make the difference between a 1-hit kill and the need to use another unit to mop up.

Tell me, am I wrong in any of this, and if so, does it make a difference in the overall argument? By the way, I'm just debating for debating's sake, not because I think I know more or am better. And I disagree with the tier.
"Yodas constantly levitating himself around his opponent in circles, becoming a vortex of green lethality."
"We like to call that jumping."

User Info: refureeman

refureeman
11 years ago#8
ok the concept of a tier is how good characters are WHEN PLAYED CORRECTLY....no one cares how bad you can play grit...he is one of the best for sure....and i disagree with the tier with hawke...but then again the guy that made this tier seems to dislike close range characters such as max and hawke...and others...ya....ok this just my 2 cents...hawke is good and grit is great...simple as that

User Info: DTaeKim

DTaeKim
11 years ago#9
I'm not arguing with you here. However, these tiers do not consider the map, only CO statistics. We all know that the map has the greatest effect on the CO choice, and obviously Max will be far better on open maps than Sami. The list suggests that on most maps, Sami would be the better option than Max assuming two equally skilled players.

You speak as if 90/100 direct units is a major handicap. It's weaker than 100/100, but it is not a debilitating weakness, especially when only three COs in the game possess defensive bonuses. If Sami's direct units were 80/100, you may have a point, but 90/100 units are still usable units.

The conclusion you came to is fallacious, in my opinion. Did you not consider Sami's transport bonus? If anything, Sami would have the advantage on larger maps because she can expand faster than Max can.

I might as well explain why Sami is ranked higher than Max. You know the importance of first-strike. In most situations, two competing units will have the same movement, which means a stalemate. Using Infantry allows you to push forward without fear of losing first-strike, because few units have the capability of OHKO Infantry on any defensive terrain. If you can OHKO Infantry, you have a slight advantage, but only if you have enough units waiting to break through and punish the units behind that Infantry wall. Herein lies the main problem: Max needs Anti-Air units to OHKO an Infantry. Sami can produce an Infantry and Tank with the same amount of funds. You can make the argument that Max will have a Tank after the Anti-Air breaks through, but that's 15000G of funding for two units, while Sami can have an Infantry and two Tanks for the same funds. You can add more units to even the odds for Max, but you cannot ignore the fact Sami will probably have the same units and then some.

In short, Max will consistently be outnumbered unless he had the funding advantage, which will not happen because Sami would have had the superior capture phase, as you agreed. Quantity and quality matters, but quantity more so, as Colin demonstrates with his Zergling capabilities.

Now, Max can adopt the same strategy and match Sami in numbers. However, Sami's soldiers hold the advantage here. She can push forward and pummel Max's soldiers, which threatens the protection around Max's heavy units. With her COP, Sami can maneuver around Max's soldier units and break through. Her SCOP is simply the icing on top.

Max can OHKO Infantry with his COP, but only if the Infantry unit is on 0-star terrain. He does gain first strike, but as long as he needs Anti-Air units to reliably OHKO Sami's units, he will consistently be at a disadvantage.
Dum spiro, spero.
As long as I breathe, I hope.

User Info: lil_literalist

lil_literalist
11 years ago#10
I don't have much time, but I'll still throw some things out there.

You didn't address aircraft at all. If there is an airport, then any map for Max is an open map. And don't underestimate Max's CO powers. They can be charged quickly, and they are pretty fearsome if you have more than a few units on the map.

Also, what you are proposing is early-game tactics. What happens if Max (or another opponent) hold out and starts mass producing tanks and anti-airs? Sami's transports can only handle so much, before they get too expensive. And that one movement bonus might be useful if they went, say, only 4 or 5 spaces. But at some point--this point--it doesn't matter as much. You will only reach a city that you could not have reached next turn 1/6 of the time (statistically).

You are basing your entire strategy on obtaining an early game advantage, and ending it before the opponent has a chance to come back. If you don't succeed in this, then Sami becomes a below-average CO with a good, but hard-to-charge SCO power.
"Yodas constantly levitating himself around his opponent in circles, becoming a vortex of green lethality."
"We like to call that jumping."
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