• Post New Message
You're browsing the GameFAQs Message Boards as a guest. Sign Up for free (or Log In if you already have an account) to be able to post messages, change how messages are displayed, and view media in posts.
  1. Boards
  2. Super Metroid
  3. I Truly Don't Understand The Hype

User Info: ZexxCrine

ZexxCrine
1 month ago#1
By no means is this a bad game. Unlike the topic directly below me at time of writing, I genuinely wish to have discussion. Please keep an open mind as I will as this topic goes on.

First some good things.
This game was clearly a marvel for its time
The environmental design and music are fantastic
The final sequence of the game is phenomenal
This game is incredibly good at tuutorializing its mechanics without making a tutorial.

Now for the fun part. I played this game with a friend in preparation for dread. It was both our first times playing Super Metroid. He came out of the experience hating super Metroid and thinking it was a genuinely bad game. I disagree, but I cant say I dont share some of his opinions. I have no real intention of ever coming back to play super Metroid, and most of my enjoyment of the game was derived from laughing at the games expense. Hopefully I can articulate some points that make me feel this way.

1.the controls.
the controls are definitely serviceable and don’t hinder the game. However, they have not aged exceptionally well. Samus is very heavy in super Metroid while at the same time being light as a feather in the air. Every grounded movement is slow to start and slidey making samus feel like the bottom of her shoes are buttered. The jumping controls make sense conceptually, but fail mechanically often times. If you jump without moving you get the normal jump. You have more control over this jump but you dont move too far horizontally. If you jump while moving you get the flipping jump which has more horizontal momentum, but slightly less control. Yet sometimes for absolutely no reason a flipping jump can become a standard jump. This is a real problem if you try to learn to wall jump which is its own problem due to having to hold the opposite direction and THEN press jump which is just a feels bad but as it isn’t required to complete the game, i dont really have further complaints about it. Unflipping also becomes an issue later in the game when you get the screw attack and infinite jump ability..
next up is weapon swapping. At first it is absolutely fine, then as you continue to play the game it becomes exceedingly tedious. Lemme just press select 4 times for the grapple beam when I need it. Whoops I wanted super misses but I pressed select 3 times in the middle of this boss fight. I now have to either press select 5 more times or i have to press a button to reset and then press select twice. This becomes a big issue once you have the scanner. If you are a meticulous person like we were and you dont know where everything is, you will be scanning dead ends and rooms in general. To do that you need to press select 5 times. You could stay on scanner for general exploration except that the scanner deletes your ability to dash so you have to swap it on and off or you have to get where your going at walking speed hoping you dont need to dash wherever you are going.

2.Pay Your Taxes
I found this really funny on many occasions, but super Metroid absolutely loves to tax you. There are so many blindsiding enemy placements that it becomes a recurring theme of the game. Jump up with your high jump to reach the next platform, but there is an enemy crawling on it that you cant see. Get taxed. Ah you need to jump down this area. You drop right onto an enemy that doesn’t die in one hit. Get taxed. You have to jump over this tiny pit that looks the same as the last tiny pit you jumped over. Whoops this tiny pit spawns enemies. Get taxed. In most cases you will only be taxed once. Afterwards you will know its there and avoid it. There was a segment in miridia that was just a whole bunch of first time here lol noob taxes in a row and I was dying from laughter. My friend did not appreciate them like I did. There is even a room in Brinstar that I am not certain is possible to get through without getting taxed. You open the door in a free fall and there is a jumping enemy mid jump over the doorway as the room loads in. The health taxes wouldn’t be so bad if the game didn't have a conniption every time you got hit. The game has plenty of health farming areas and save points that you probably aren’t dying to health taxes. However, any time you get hit the game drops some frames and samus either has minor pushback or gets kicked a ways and it is fairly disorienting. Spikes may not instant kill you in this game but they disorient the s*** out of you if you touch them. It’s a coin toss how far they push you back and the frame drop coupled with it make it hard to quickly adjust to where you are being thrown.

3.archaic and intentionally mean design.
First lets start with problems created by age. The one way gates are a real problem for me. Most of the one way gates located throughout the game are in prime spots for backtracking. They really should have stayed open once opened. I feel like this is either a hardware limitation or just a design that was in its infant stages as a concept. This isn’ super egregious or even all that frustrating, but I would be lying if I said I felt nothing about the forced extra backtracking that could be minimized if some of the one way gates stayed open. Now onto the downright mean. There is a ton of design in super Metroid that feels very intentionally mean. There are several “lol go get the powerup SIKE its a bunch of one way tiles” which would be fine if they weren’t also followed by extremely tedious backtracking through a bunch of one way areas to get back to them. I dont really have a problem with beginner traps like that, but sometimes the backtracking that follows them is extremely roundabout and annoying. There are also many unlabeled power ups in rooms that require scanning or luck to find some of them being placed in extremely frustrating “who could have possibly found that” places. Ive played many Metroidvanias and I’ve never really felt that way about other ones. Maybe its in my head but it creates a game feel of devs high fiving and going “lol the player is gonna be so annoyed by this” rather than the usual feel of “the player is gonna think its really clever to put this here” that I usually get. It just feels mean spirited. Like the intent was just to frustrate.

those are the biggest gripes I have with the game. Again, I don’t think the game is a bad game. In-fact I feel like super Metroid is one remake away from being the absolute best Metroid. Slap some modern conveniences to the ui and controls. Redesign or give answers to some of the more obtuse design choices and I feel like it will shine so bright. But so far we have played Metroid zero mission, AM2R and Metroid: Samus returns, super Metroid, and are working our way through fusion. This is definitely the oldest game in that list and we agree its also the worst so far. I just personally dont understand the claims that this is the best Metroidvania or full stop one of the best games ever made. What are we missing here?

There are a few other nitpicks I have with the game that are very small but add to the overall dissatisfied package. Ive already written a wall of text so I dont need to add them on but if this topic does become a real discussion I may end up listing some of them later. Things like the finicky quicksand or minor boss design gripes but hopefully I’ve managed to articulate my point of view without coming across as contrarian for the sake of being contrarian.

User Info: Da Dood

Da Dood
1 month ago#2
Here's a suggestion that'll probably do more for you than a bunch of people arguing vs. your points: watch a speedrun, then get back to us. Any speedrun, it takes literally 40 minutes.

It's hard to even begin to explain the amount of crazy stuff you can do in this game, from secret techniques to item skips and different routes, and a lot of it just isn't possible in any other Metroid.

Pay a visit to deertier.com, pick a category (I recommend Any% No Major Glitches) and check out the vid. Best to do it now while the game is still fresh in your mind.

Or just wait because someone else will probably address your points anyway, hah.
And this time!

User Info: ZexxCrine

ZexxCrine
1 month ago#3
Da Dood posted...
Here's a suggestion that'll probably do more for you than a bunch of people arguing vs. your points: watch a speedrun, then get back to us. Any speedrun, it takes literally 40 minutes.

It's hard to even begin to explain the amount of crazy stuff you can do in this game, from secret techniques to item skips and different routes, and a lot of it just isn't possible in any other Metroid.

Pay a visit to deertier.com, pick a category (I recommend Any% No Major Glitches) and check out the vid. Best to do it now while the game is still fresh in your mind.

Or just wait because someone else will probably address your points anyway, hah.
I have watched speedruns long before I ever played the game. what can be done with the game at a high level abusing glitches unintended mechanics or using intended mechanics to their full potential that arnt required for a casual playthrough unless looked up beforehand do not affect a casual playthrough.

im not here to discuss super metroid as a speed game. I think there are games that are better when played for the speedrun. this may be one of those cases. that, however, is not at all pertinent to the conversation. there are some incredibly terrible games with crazy cool speedrunning tech. doesn't make them good games.

also I know you probably didnt mean it this way, but answering "why is this game so good?" with essentially "you can skip 90% of it" is an incredibly baffling statement to me.
(edited 1 month ago)

User Info: AkaiAzul

AkaiAzul
1 month ago#4
I find that a Metroidvania is best measured, not on their first playthrough, but their second, third, or even forth playthrough.

The first is to give you a feel for the game, literally just play, explore, have fun. After beating it, explore some more and try to find any missing items for the full experience.

After some cool down time, reflect on the experience. Was it fun? Do you want to play again? Do you want to do anything different or better? If not, why not?

Super Metroid is pretty much a yes to all of these questions every playthrough. It was fun every time, I would like to play it again, each time I want to try something different.

That said, I grew up with Super Metroid, so I know my nostalgia glasses are on, so I'd like to share my thoughts on your points.

Her jump is definitely floaty. I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing. It makes her trajectory very vertical, which is helpful for exploration, one of the biggest points of the game. If we change her jump trajectory, I'm not sure it would have that same exploration feeling. More action like, but the boss battles were fine as they are.

Her grounded movement has a slight but noticeable startup. It doesn't bother me, and I enjoy abusing it to initiate "zero horizontal spin jumps" and faster shine sparks, but I can understand it being annoying. That said, I never found it slidey except when she's running/dashing. I think this was intentionally done as a tax for going fast as the game rewards you with faster clear times with seeing more of Samus at the end.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "Yet sometimes for absolutely no reason a flipping jump can become a standard jump." You cancel a spinning jump by tapping up in the middle of it or by firing her gun. Also, if you're holding the shoot button while wall jumping, Samus will stop spinning (no, I have no idea why, and yes, I hate that that happens). I will agree that the fact that once Samus is in a normal jump stance, she can no longer spin jump, meaning no space jump, no wall jump, no pseudo screw attack. They thankfully address this every 2D Metroid game thereafter.

As for getting taxed, it did teach me quickly to never assume anywhere is safe and to cover my movement with weapon fire (everywhere I'm moving towards is where I'm firing or with the screw attack or pseudo screw attack). I'm not sure if that was the developer intention, but that's what I got out of it. Considering how much energy she can have, it sounds fair to me.

I agree the unmarked power ups and the "Billy May's" rooms are cheap. If I'm not mistaken, they didn't repeat that in future games.

Weapon select is a problem. Unfortunately, I'm not sure how it can be fixed without additional shoulder buttons. Maybe select only switches between missiles and beams and power bombs are contextual, but then how would one do powerbomb beam combos?

All in all, these problems don't stop me from enjoying it and replaying it multiple times over. It stands as a wonderful experience, if imperfect (and what game is perfect?).

User Info: Da Dood

Da Dood
1 month ago#5
ZexxCrine posted...
im not here to discuss super metroid as a speed game
Me neither. Showing what can be done with the game doesn't mean that's the only way to play it. And it does affect casual playthroughs. You don't have to be a pro speedrunner to learn and appreciate new things about the game, that's just silly.

Doesn't seem like you're open to change your mind in any way, though, considering that response.

answering "why is this game so good?" with essentially "you can skip 90% of it" is an incredibly baffling statement to me.
Uh, good thing you know I didn't say that, then?

And this time!

User Info: ZexxCrine

ZexxCrine
1 month ago#6
Da Dood posted...
Me neither. Showing what can be done with the game doesn't mean that's the only way to play it. And it does affect casual playthroughs. You don't have to be a pro speedrunner to learn and appreciate new things about the game, that's just silly.

Doesn't seem like you're open to change your mind in any way, though, considering that response.

Uh, good thing you know I didn't say that, then?

it just comes off as a non-sequitur. it has no bearing on my arguments nor does it make an argument for the game in this context. I enjoyed watching speedruns of super metroid, but just because I can sequence break the game and it has a high skill ceiling doesn't really come into play. how many casual players are going to pick up even half that tech without expressly looking tech up? there is nothing to change my mind about in that context.

thats like asking "what makes chess so compelling as a game and why is it considered better than other board games?" and the answer you get is "well go watch some masters play it, you can make a whole bunch of moves" its just not a great launching point of the basic merits of the game in general.

User Info: Da Dood

Da Dood
1 month ago#7
Oh, it has no bearing on your arguments. Okay. Do you think you've written some kind of revolutionary thesis here? My dude, take one look at this board and you'll see other people complaining about similar things. I'm afraid your arguments aren't new. I was genuinely trying to help you see the game in a different light, but I guess I failed.

Would love it if you could elaborate on these, though:

1. I don't understand why the game's merits need to cater exclusively to the most basic casual playthrough. Videogames are interactive; not everyone's experience/goal will be the exact same, and in Super Metroid's case, there are multiple layers of depth to it and people of all skill levels can enjoy it. Why not celebrate all possibilities?

2. I don't agree with the notion that casual players are numbnuts who can't learn new stuff. Everyone starts as a casual player. And incidentally, why wouldn't recent players look up new tricks or read more about the game's design? Are they not allowed to? All it takes is being interested.
And this time!

User Info: ZexxCrine

ZexxCrine
1 month ago#8
Da Dood posted...
Oh, it has no bearing on your arguments. Okay. Do you think you've written some kind of revolutionary thesis here? My dude, take one look at this board and you'll see other people complaining about similar things. I'm afraid your arguments aren't new. I was genuinely trying to help you see the game in a different light, but I guess I failed.

Would love it if you could elaborate on these, though:

1. I don't understand why the game's merits need to cater exclusively to the most basic casual playthrough. Videogames are interactive; not everyone's experience/goal will be the exact same, and in Super Metroid's case, there are multiple layers of depth to it and people of all skill levels can enjoy it. Why not celebrate all possibilities?

2. I don't agree with the notion that casual players are numbnuts who can't learn new stuff. Everyone starts as a casual player. And incidentally, why wouldn't recent players look up new tricks or read more about the game's design? Are they not allowed to? All it takes is being interested.

i dont understand the hostility at all.

I don't think ive written a thesis or anything worth award. I have posed a question and arguments towards my opposing position. if you want me to reclarify I could do that.

as for your points. i never said it did need to cater to a casual. I said that my argument is centered at that level. the game can have plenty more to offer for those that wish or stumble upon depth. unfortunately in the case of super metroid most of these speedrunning tricks that make the game cool to watch are not going to be stumbled upon in your very first playthrough.

I never said that casual players are stupid. you arn't required to play super metroid more than once. personally I don't look up a guide, glitches, sequence breaks, and tech when im playing through a single player game for the first time. if I wanted to play super metroid a second time, I would probably look up and practice all that stuff in order to get the alternate "endings" for the game. unfortunately this is the ONLY metroid I have played where I have absolutely no desire to ever play again. I replayed fusion, am2r, samus returns, and zero mission multiple times. I honestly don't ever see myself coming back to this game.

again though I don't think this game is a bad game. I just dont find it as fun to play as not only other metroids, but other metroidvanias in general.
(edited 1 month ago)

User Info: GoukiAkujiki

GoukiAkujiki
1 month ago#9
Don't play games made before you were born.

And maybe try to understand when people offer you insight. You don’t need to be a speedrunning pro to improve and learn. In fact I would think it nearly IMPOSSIBLE for someone to play this once and then not be able to achieve at least one early gain of any sort on a replay.

You are looking at it like there's only two categories: total piece of s*** casual and uber speed run pro. Try to realize the middle ground is almost 30 years wide.

But honestly, you’ll never understand. You admitted to watching top level speed runs before you even played. That’s going to affect your outlook because you’re going to see what a normal first run looks like and be frustrated, rather than in awe like most of us were back when we played it.

But more than that, it’s obvious that you are looking at a sacred, legendary game and purposefully trying to find anything you can wrong with it. Nothing is going to tarnish a gaming experience more than going into it and then through it with the sole desire of trying to find flaws. You’ll find them in anything with that mindset, and you’ll gain nothing from it.
(edited 1 month ago)

User Info: HealingMind

HealingMind
1 month ago#10
I've also been trying to find the really good parts that people really love about this. Been playing it on and off, and I feel like it might just not be a game for me. Trying to find out how to progress often feels soul-crushing, going endlessly back and forth between the place you're "stuck" at and trying to find what the game is trying to tell you and how to do it as all your leads get gated off by an item you don't have yet, all while getting chipped away on health or just resetting because it'll be faster than refueling and going back through.

It's a shame because when progress can be made, it's pretty fun, and there's so many things that are interesting about it. I don't know if I'm just in a bad mindset due to this being my first game of this Genre, but 2 bosses in, and it hasn't really dug into me the way it has other people.
  1. Boards
  2. Super Metroid
  3. I Truly Don't Understand The Hype
  • Post New Message

GameFAQs Q&A

How do I do a wall jump? Side Quest1 Answer
Stuck in Brinstar? Side Quest4 Answers
How do I get past the spot right after fightng Ridley? Main Quest2 Answers
Stuck in Norfair? Main Quest3 Answers
Where can I find Space Jump? Side Quest2 Answers