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  3. Clean hits modify total damage by 1.25x

User Info: MasterKnight75

MasterKnight75
1 year ago#1
I've been practice running to have a plan of attack for my YouTube playthrough of SoE, and here's an obscure mechanic that I discovered: all 3 weapon types have the ability to land a clean hit that multiplies the total damage by 1.25x. With the Swords and Spears, the clean hit is with the very tip of the weapon. Axes are where I'm noticing because I was clearing 40 damage against Carniflowers (48 DEF, results in 9 damage cut) when using the L1 attack of the Spider's Claw when at L14 (46 ATK), so I figured something was going on. Sure enough, hitting with the blade itself at just the right range is what causes the extra damage.

It's at least a working mechanic that could give a modicum of support to Axes, which do have the easiest time managing the clean hitting ability, but I feel ATK itself is what should have been multiplied, so as to create for vets a sense of reliability against DEF enemies like Skelesnails who are supposed to be a check for the player's variety handling. Still, it might have its moments for cutting tedium, but I'll have to see, though I'm at least glad the gameplay has moments like mixing Raptors with Carniflowers.

@ItsBillsFault or anybody such as @ninakoru dabbling in the coding, feel free to correct me.
Master Knight DH at your service.
http://www.youtube.com/user/MasterKnightDH

User Info: assassin17

assassin17
1 year ago#2
afaik, this 1.25x is just the upper bound of the normal, random physical damage range. here's the formula:
https://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/secret_of_evermore_snes5_497.html#secret_of_evermore_snes5_497

wtf is "damage cut"? if that refers to a reduction in damage points, doesn't it vary entirely by attacker?
''Attacks are the best attack.'' -- RedDemon's strategy for the 2nd to last boss in FF3us -- http://db.gamefaqs.com/console/snes/file/final_fantasy_iii_boss.txt

User Info: MasterKnight75

MasterKnight75
1 year ago#3
Okay, so after some research, I stand corrected. Of course, the placebo was definitely significant. Any ideas about the hit handling of the weapons? Because that's likely what was throwing me off.

I think this would have been a good mechanic, but alas, no such luck it's around. Sorry, guys.
Master Knight DH at your service.
http://www.youtube.com/user/MasterKnightDH

User Info: assassin17

assassin17
1 year ago#4
like hitboxes? i have no idea on that.

i see you changed from "damage cut" to "attack cut" on the wiki; thanks. though admittedly, it failed to sink into me that because Defense's reduction to base damage is subtractive rather than multiplicative, providing the alteration in damage points is actually feasible. it'd involve a range because of the random variance; e.g. 8 Attack Cut would be 6-10 Damage Cut, and it's possible it wouldn't always be exact due to rounding and such. what you have now is plenty good; i'm just walking back some of my critique.
''Attacks are the best attack.'' -- RedDemon's strategy for the 2nd to last boss in FF3us -- http://db.gamefaqs.com/console/snes/file/final_fantasy_iii_boss.txt

User Info: MasterKnight75

MasterKnight75
1 year ago#5
Yeah, the damage cut from Physical DEF being purely subtractive IS odd when Magic DEF works like the DEF boosts in the Advance Wars series. Although I see suggestion that Magic DEF may be purely subtractive too for damage done to the player. It wouldn't surprise me, even if it would prove beyond doubt that Verminator's design is absolutely indefensible.

I think I'll make a Discord server in the interest of convenience:
https://discord.gg/qs3yKRy
Master Knight DH at your service.
http://www.youtube.com/user/MasterKnightDH

User Info: MasterKnight75

MasterKnight75
1 year ago#6
Turns out that Magic DEF IS directly subtractive too when it's the Boy or Dog taking damage. I'll look further into the damage values, but looking at the exact damage Thraxx's Acid Rain was doing to my characters, I had my suspicions for a reason.

I can understand the developers didn't want players spamming leveled up alchemy against certain enemies, but it still suffocates spells like Nitro. Which, the only bosses left for it that have sub-50 Magic DEF are the Faces, the Rimsalas, and Metal Magmar, all of whom have 0 Magic DEF anyway. Really, this would have benefitted from a defense piercing system, with Nitro likely getting to ignore, oh, probably 48 Magic DEF, so that it would deal 13/16 of its damage against Carltron's Robot instead of the expected 1/16. (And if you're wondering about the Flowering Deaths, just modify their Magic DEF to 128. Done.) Meanwhile, the player still is taking a lot of damage from the heavier hitting spells. And Verminator of course still has his %$#%$#^#$ Explosion dealing probably a base damage of 200.

Okay, SoE, so you're staggering level grinding. That's good. What isn't, is ruining the player wanting to use the stronger spells.
Master Knight DH at your service.
http://www.youtube.com/user/MasterKnightDH

User Info: assassin17

assassin17
1 year ago#7
a different formula, then? sure it's just not a Charm modifying the damage or something?
''Attacks are the best attack.'' -- RedDemon's strategy for the 2nd to last boss in FF3us -- http://db.gamefaqs.com/console/snes/file/final_fantasy_iii_boss.txt

User Info: MasterKnight75

MasterKnight75
1 year ago#8
assassin17 posted...
a different formula, then? sure it's just not a Charm modifying the damage or something?

I'm actually looking through the ASM, trying to find the bosses' Alchemy damage values to know what I'll be up against with Verminator. Here you go if you need a reference, starting at $119CA6:

E0894E - CPX #$4E89 (Checks for Boy or Dog's stats)
900F - BCC #$0F (Branches for enemy's stats)
DA - PHX
BD6000 - A = [$6000 + Y] (Pointer to Boy/Dog's type data)
AA - X = A
A502 - A = [$02] (Damage Value)
38 - SET Carry
FF1D008E - A = A - [$8E:001D + X] (Subtracts Boy/Dog's Magic DEF from Damage Value)
FA - PLX
8025 - Branch Always #$25 (Enemy's portion is 37 bytes)
DA - PHX
BD6000 - A = [$6000 + Y]
AA - X = A
A502 - A = [$02] (Damage Value)
0A - ASL A (Multiplies A by 2)
0A - ASL A (Again)
E221 - 8 Bit Mode, also SET Carry for later subtraction
8F1B2100 - [$00211B] = A
EB - XBA (Basically like SWAP from Z80 except for twice as many bits)
8F1B2100 - [$00211B] = A (not a mistake; this address is used for the SNES's built-in multiplication and is written to twice for the 2 byte multiplicand)
A940 - A = 64
FF1D008E - A = A - [$8E:001D + X] (Subtracts enemy's Magic DEF)
8F1C2100 - [$00211C] = A (1 byte multiplier)
C230 - 16 Bit Mode
AF352100 - A = [$002135] (middle and high bytes of product--IOW, A is set to (Damage Value * 4) * (64 - MDEF) / 256)
FA - PLX


Yeah, I'm sure it's not a Charm or anything.

Oh yeah, and speaking of Charms, I dug up some ASM with the hit rates, and it looks like the Ruby Heart's Hit lowering does activate unconditionally, no sign of reliance on having low HP, but the Hit lowering is only 10 points worth. An actually decent amount, but nothing worth throwing skepticism with luck away for. Oh, and incidentally, Carltron's Robot has 110 Hit Rate, which means he basically ignores the Ruby's Heart boost.
Master Knight DH at your service.
http://www.youtube.com/user/MasterKnightDH
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