The mysterious Virtue stat

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  3. The mysterious Virtue stat

User Info: ServantOfMagnus

3 years ago#1
Thanks to darkmoon2321 for finding at least one function of the Virtue stat in this game.

Per his test, the % probability a CPU ruler will attempt to capture a messenger is 50 - Virtue/2 + Hostility/2

Also, he notes:

I tested this while sending out officers to ally with other rulers. Officers caught trying to spy may have a different formula, although the game still checks the ruler's Virtue.

So, here's what I'm thinking:

I had originally thought 'Virtue' was a kind of metric of 'good behavior' vs. 'bad behavior'. That's what the word means to me. However, there were a couple of problems. First, it seemed that most of the 'good behavior'/'bad behavior' stuff was covered by the Duty stat. I couldn't quite figure out why the game needed two different stats. The answer given is that 'Duty' is for subordinate officers and 'Virtue' is for rulers, but that wasn't entirely satisfying - why not just use the same stat?

The second problem was Liu Bei. It is noteworthy that his Virtue stat is 100. However, from my experience playing the game, he doesn't seem to be any less of a jerk than any of the other major rulers : - ) On the other hand, there has been a lot of speculation that he has a 'special ability'. It is thought that he is much better at keeping generals loyal to him than any other ruler, by far.

So my next theory was that Virtue affects the willingness of subordinate officers to follow you. In that sense, 'virtue' means something more like 'esteem' or 'respectability'. That seemed plausible; I thought, maybe in the context of Three Kingdoms, that was a more correct cultural interpretation???

But darkmoon's work poured cold water on that theory; Virtue does not affect loyalty drops (well, at least not directly). So I was back to being stumped.

With this new information, I think I may have a better theory. Virtue is more like 'good behavior'/'bad behavior', regarding the ruler's actions. For example, do you really need to capture a messenger when the message is not even intended for your territory? I also seem to remember reading somewhere that the stat was also referred to as 'Mercy'?

But the key observation is this: The lower a ruler's Virtue, the more likely he is to engage in actions that will lower his Trust rating; the higher his Virtue, the more likely he is to engage in actions that will raise his Trust. And it is Trust that has a major impact on loyalties.

Liu Bei's 'special ability' is likely a combination of multiple factors. His 100 Virtue makes him more likely to have a higher Trust rating throughout the game. His 99 Charm helps with rewarding generals (although I am always suspicious of whether CPU rulers have the same restrictions as human-player rulers; the CPU can raise the ruler's INT with writings, after all.....) And his Compatibility stat is 50 - right smack in the middle - which is a big help. Also, his Ambition is a relatively high 85, which perhaps makes him more likely to 'have his act together'?

So it seems that the interaction of the different stats can matter a lot more than I would have originally thought; for a 25-year old game, there's a lot going on here! I guess that's why it's still great after all these years.

If anyone has any information or experiences to support, refute, add to, refine, or qualify this theory, please post! Anything more about Duty or Ambition would be good to post here, too.

Thanks again to darkmoon2321 for researching the game's processes!

User Info: Cao_Bao

3 years ago#2
I'm also thinking about Liu Biao.
He's always stock up so many guys in province 20. But strangely his duty 80, virtue 55, ambition 20, charm 68.

Liu Biao: "I love to collect people."
Hugh Hefner: "Me too, but I think you have the wrong taste."

User Info: DragonAtma

3 years ago#3
Well, province 20 is fairly loaded with officers; Liu Biao starts with eleven and can search a bunch more.

I really should try putting him at 70 or so ambition; Liu Biao was eager to expand, but wound up at war with Zhang Xian, nearly at war with Sun Ce, and at odds with Liu Zhang.

COMPLETELY RANDOM TRIVIA: Wang Can (follower of Liu Biao) and Wang Kai (follower of Lu Bu) were cousins. The late Wang Can's sons were both implicated in Wei Feng's foolish rebellion of 219, so Wang Can's large collection of books were inherited by Wang Kai's son, Wang Ye.
My NES, SNES, and GB all work just fine. Why should I downgrade to a Wii U, PS4, or XBone?

User Info: Cao_Bao

3 years ago#4
Thanks for everyone who are actively research the game formula.

So the loyalty stability only depends on trust and compat value.
Charm is only for increasing it up.

And Liu Bei's 'special traits' are myths. ... Well then lots of my mods have faulty logic of compatibility values... (I made the protagonist and antagonist have difference of more than 80 compats; that means the protagonist is on one edge of the side and the antagonist is on another edge of the side, of compats values; that's a great fault because with this the protagonist cannot have Liu Bei's special traits).

So if we wish to create the protagonist, we should give him compat 50; and also high duty and high virtue to avoid him making stupidity to destroy his trust.

Talking about trust-destroyer; I think Yuan Shao is the perfect one. His position is on edge of map, making him difficult to increase trust; but he loves to imprison messengers. That idiot.

Cao Bao: "I think I have Liu Bei's special traits too."
Mi Fang: "What special traits? Being too close to two hunk guys?"
Cao Bao: "No, not that traits."
Hugh Hefner: "I wonder why RoTK2 guys has awful taste..."

User Info: Cao_Bao

3 years ago#5
Well, I have recalculate some of my mods; the protagonist should have compat of 50.

Speaking about the compats; seems the numbers is a bit wrong.
Cao Cao and Liu Bei are arch-enemy then they should be at opposite side; for example Cao Cao compat 1 then Liu Bei should be compat 100.
Sun Quan is somehow a turncoat, so he can have compat around 50.
But if Liu Bei have compat 100, then Liu Bei cannot be 'benevolent' ruler, because the 'benevolent' compat is 50.
So the Koei makes Cao Cao and Sun Quan as arch-enemy, it's Wei vs Wu, instead of Wei vs Shu.

I made my mod BKoAC with Song Jiang as one opposite side, and Fang La as the arch-enemy, and Gao Qiu as the turncoat.
But that makes Gao Qiu as Liu Bei; or as 'Cao Cao with Liu Bei special traits'.
The Gao Qiu has Cao Cao provinces, and Liu Bei's compat; and he's quickly increase trust. .. .. His provinces are rich, his generals are plenty and loyal. .. .. Is there no one to challenge this villain.....
This mod is already finished and some people already download it, but now I rethink to readjust the compat; maybe to give Song Jiang compat 50, so he can become 'Liu Bei'. .. .. But it's also interesting to have Gao Qiu strong.

I made my mod L'Empereur with Napoleon as one opposide side, and Geoge III England as the other opposite side (his arch enemy).
Somehow I bit confused who will be the Liu Bei of L'Empereur, since I didn't find anyone suitable.
This mod is not yet finished so I can do anything I want.
If I put George III as Liu Bei.....or Napoleon as Liu Bei..... I think this two are the more acceptable than the others.

In Cao Cao's pavillion,
Cao Bao: "Maybe I should have compat 50."
Liu Bei: "Is the only hero of this and me?" (Pointing at Cao Bao then to himself)
*lightning strikes Cao Cao*
Cao Cao (covered with ash and dust): "What are you talking about. That supposed to be my speech!"

User Info: DragonAtma

3 years ago#6
Do keep in mind that Liu Bei and Cao Cao cooperated in opposing Lu Bu and Yuan Shu. In addition, when Liu Bei invaded Sun Quan (221 AD) and Sun Quan tried to submit to Cao Pi, Liu Ye recommended that Cao Pi reject the submission and attack Sun Quan (thus splitting Wu between the two). Most historians think that Cao Pi should have followed Liu Ye's advice; I'm not a professional historian, but I agree with them. At the absolute minimum, Wei would have gotten northern Yang (thus giving them their much-desired foothold south of the Yangtze), and more likely would have gotten as much land as Liu Bei, if not more. In either case, Wei could then just push west until Shu runs out of land.

As for the Napoleonic era, France's traditional enemy was England, just as it had been at least as far back as the Hundred Year' War (1337-1453). They'd make sense for 0/100 rivals. In addition, keep in mind that (1) England styled themselves King of France from the 1340's up until 1800 (thanks to England's Edward III being the nephew of France's Charles of Valois), plus thew two were at war through ALL of 1793 to 1815 (except for a 14-month truce from 1802-1803). Ironically, yopu can thank Napoleon (and his First French Republic) for ending the claim.
My NES, SNES, and GB all work just fine. Why should I downgrade to a Wii U, PS4, or XBone?

User Info: Cao_Bao

3 years ago#7
Someone told me: it's useless to make the prime protagonist into middle compat (50).
It would be better if the prime power (example: Cao Cao) has the middle compat; because the game lack of challenge.
If we hexedit the prime power with compat 50 and virtue 100 and charm 100, the game will provide more decent challenge.

That idea seems to be the right one.
CPU cannot defeat us humans, even in difficulty 3; all they can do is to slow us down.
If the 'Cao Cao' has awful generals loyalties, then the game lost the challenge.

The conclusion is: make 'Cao Cao' have compat 50, virtue 100, charm almost 100, and ambition 100 (not sure about what ambition does).

Lu Bu: "I have compat 45; so I'm have an almost a middle compat, then I am as charismatic as Liu Bei! Everyone will eager to join me quickly!"
Liu Bei: "But, I think your compat 45 cause you to eager to join everyone quickly when bribed instead."
Lu Bu: "Hmm, I think so... Hahahahah, why do you always can read my mind."
Laughing histerically and suddenly... Lu Bu switches sides.
Liu Bei: "Hey, why are you switches sides now? Nobody bribe you yet."

User Info: DragonAtma

3 years ago#8
Decisiveness seems to be how often they do things. Cao Cao has very high decisiveness, so he expands like crazy. Liu Biao has pretty low decisiveness, so he sits in province 20 on his pile of 150,000 soldiers.

It may also affect how often they interact with others (Ally, Tiger-Wolf, etc.), as opposed to doing internal things (Hire, Train, etc.).
My NES, SNES, and GB all work just fine. Why should I downgrade to a Wii U, PS4, or XBone?

User Info: Cao_Bao

3 years ago#9
This is the worst news you need to know about virtue....

Many years ago, I found three words in main.exe PC, it's: duty vrt ambition.
Then many people said vrt is Virtue.
But in main.exe it's vrt.

Vrt could be virtue, could be varity, or variety, could be vortex, could be anything.

Because we always think that's virtue, that could be misled us if it's wrong.

So before we discuss about the calculation of 'virtue', we should learn what's the effect of that variable first; then we'll know what's 'vrt' means.

Cao Bao: "I think in year 1980's there is a japanese robot cartoon called Vorutes Faivu."
Mi Fang: "With all your creativity and stupidity, you should go to Hollywood."
Cao Bao: "Well, my friends said I should make movies with titles Holly-sheet and Holly-crab."

User Info: darkmoon2321

3 years ago#10
Duty is the major reason why Lu Bu is so easily bribed in battle. The mechanics for bribing an officer go like this:

Take officers loyalty, and multiply by 2/3, rounding down.
If officers loyalty is 100, add 7 to the above value.
Take officer's duty rating divided by three (rounded down), and add it to the total.
Add 8 to the total.

This total represents the officer's defense against bribery.

Now the game takes a random number from zero to the amount of gold that you spent on the bribe. If the random number is greater than the officers defense value, the bribe succeeds.

Lu Bu has a duty rating of 10, which only adds 3 points to his defense against bribes. His initial loyalty to Dong Zhuo in scenario 1 is only 62, which adds 41 points to his defense against bribes. Given the 8 points you always get, that is 52 total defense against bribe. If you use 99 gold to bribe him, you have a 52/99 chance to fail (and thus a 47/99 chance to succeed). However, even if you were to raise Lu Bu's loyalty to 100, you would still only have:
100*2/3 + 7 + 10/3 + 8 = 84 defense against bribe.
So you still have a 15/99 chance of bribing him.
Officers with a Duty stat above 54 should be immune to bribery at max loyalty.
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