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User Info: Darkwing Duck

Darkwing Duck
1 year ago#11
Enemy zones are broken into squares, 16x16 or 32x32, I don't remember. Dragon Warrior has an overlapping zone. Final Fantasy has the famous overlapping zone. I am fairly certain it's unintentional.
Let's get Dangerous.

User Info: Roundman

Roundman
1 year ago#12
Darkwing Duck posted...
Enemy zones are broken into squares, 16x16 or 32x32, I don't remember. Dragon Warrior has an overlapping zone. Final Fantasy has the famous overlapping zone. I am fairly certain it's unintentional.


The fact that there are some overlapping zones is probably unintentional / unavoidable (though I guess they could have simply replaced those Kanave forest squares with water if they really didn't want low-level players to encounter powerful monsters there). But I think there's a realistic chance that the developers, realizing that they were going to have to deal with overlap at that part of the map, intentionally made it accessible for early leveling by choosing to give the player access to both the poison needle and to Bombcrags at that spot. They just go together perfectly. It might only be a coincidence, but, if so, it's a very useful coincidence.

User Info: Roundman

Roundman
1 year ago#13
So far, the Keyless game has not produced any other surprises. The Samanao quest played out as per usual- go to the cave, get the Mirror or Ra, reveal the Boss Troll, kill him, and get the Staff of Change. While having the Staff of Change allows access to the Elf Town shop, there's no way to get to Greenlad to exchange it for the Sailor's Thigh Bone without the ship.

After getting the Staff of Change, I used the travel door at the shrine east of Samanao to travel back to the Promontory of Olivia. From there I visited Baharata. The kidnapping scene played out just as it always does. My next step will to be the fight Kandar, rescue the kidnapped lovers, and receive the Black Pepper. I will then travel to Portoga for the first time and speak with the King with Black Pepper already on hand. I will provide an update about what happens. I'm thinking that it will just trigger the usual "Thou hast done well and returned with black pepper" speech as though I have already spoken with him.

User Info: Roundman

Roundman
1 year ago#14
Traveling around with the upper world of Dragon Warrior 3 with the Open spell but no ship highlights some odd choices by the game designers when it comes to travel door placement.

For instance, the first major plot point in the game is that Aliahan has been sealed off from the rest of the world due to its prior aggression. Closing Aliahan off from the rest of the world was so important that someone (Romalian forces?) walled off the travel door with a thick brick/stone wall that needs explosives in order to be breached. The game implies that the travel door in the Cave of Enticement is the only way off the continent (for example, there's the injured guy at the Aliahan Inn who severely injured himself trying to make a Magic Ball so that he could sail the seas). Yet the game outright ignores that there is another travel door on the Aliahan continent, in the forest south of Reeve. This travel door is behind bars, but it doesn't need a Magic Ball to access. No one mentions it.

For a game with such little plot, it's weird that they created this plot hole. Why is that travel door there in the first place? All it does is take you to the Lighthouse Shrine south of Portoga. And if they put that travel door there simply because they wanted to make sure that the player visited the lighthouse to discuss the Orbs, why did they put it behind a Final Key door rather than a Magic Key door? Surely the player would have heard of the Orbs and visited that Shrine by the time the Final Key.

Another weird thing is the travel door connection between the shrine with an inn Southeast of Dhama and the shrine with the healer northwest of Tedanki. What is the point of that connection? I could understand it if the travel door in the shrine near Dhama were behind a Magic Key door. Then it would be a quick way for a party that just received the ship to travel south from Portoga, into the healing shrine, through the travel door, and on to Dhama, handy if the party recovered and delivered the Black Pepper without traveling to Dhama first. But putting that travel door behind a Final Key door takes away that purpose- surely anyone who has a ship and has traveled enough to recover the Final Key has managed to find Dhama.

The only other reason to visit the healing shrine is if you're sailing nearby and need quick healing services. It's on a piece of the continent with nothing else of interest, as mountains block that shrine off from Tedanki. I can see having that healing shrine there just to add something to that part of the map, but why bother to give it a travel door to some random, easily accessible shrine on the other side of the continent? By the time you have the Final Key, there's no reason to ever use that travel door.

User Info: Roundman

Roundman
1 year ago#15
I finished the Black Pepper quest this evening and met the King of Portoga for the first time with Black Pepper in hand. As I suspected, this simply triggered the usual response you receive when you bring the Black Pepper to him. He welcomed my Hero by name (even though he had never met him before) and thanked him for returning with Black Pepper. As usual, he awarded my party with a ship and commenced his overeating of pepper. My party is now free to roam the seas.

It looks like the only lasting impact of my Open spell aided sequence breaking is that I will not be able to get Norud to open his passage in this quest. Since I delivered the Black Pepper to the King of Portoga on my first visit to him, he gave me the ship without ever giving me the Royal Scroll. After I delivered the Black Pepper, I went to visit Norud. He told my party to go away and did not open the pathway to the east. So for the first time ever in my 25+ years of playing Dragon Warrior 3, I will beat the game without ever having opened Norud's passage. I also plan on never visiting Eginbear, which will be a first for me as it is usually a must visit location in a typical game.

I don't regret trying this modified Keyless quest. In fact, I think that this approach might even result in a quicker game completion than a typical quest where you start with 4 characters. For the most part, leveling two characters to the mid-30s near Kanave completes your overworld grinding all at once. As I described, the two character party leveled very quickly. It took me no more than 20 hours total from the start of the game through level 36, and the slowest slog was leveling around Reeve in preparation for the Cave of Enticement. I think 20 hours to level 36 is not unreasonable for a typical run of DW 3. I can't imagine trying for a true keyless game, though. Getting to level 35 near Aliahan would be torture and not worth it.

Once I hit level 36, I added a Soldier to the party for the Samanao quest. The Soldier leveled quickly, as my two high level characters were able to carry the low level Soldier (who was well equipped, as I had banked enough gold to buy him the best equipment in Samanao) through the Samanao cave where he gained lots of experience. After Samanao, I visited Dhama and changed my Wizard, who was level 37 at that point, to a Fighter. I now had a Fighter Wizard with 88 MP and all Wizard spells except Chance and Explodet. I rounded out my 4-person team with a new Wizard. I then leveled in the upper floors of the Tower of Garuna. This went very quickly, as I equipped my Fighter Wizard (who knows Bedragon) with the Meteorite Armband and easily slaughtered large groups of metal slimes using dragon breath. Once the new Wizard learned Bikill (level 22), I changed him to a Sage. This whole process of leveling and class changing a brand new character took less than 2 hours.

Having beaten Kandar 2, I now have a level 38 Hero, a level 26 Soldier, a level 22 Fighter Wizard, and a level 12 Sage with Bikill, all with the best equipment money can buy at this point. Given the high level of my Hero, the rapidly developing Soldier, and the breadth of my Fighter Wizard's spell list, I can go anywhere and advance the plot without having to spend any more time grinding. This gives its own sort of freedom. I can essentially go where I want, when I want, in whichever order I choose. I will fight the battles I encounter along the way, which will inevitably level-up my lower level characters, but I don't think that I will need to intentionally grind again until maybe the very end game, when I will have the luxury of Metal Babbles around Rimuldar to speed things along.

My plan now is to tackle the Ghost Ship and Necrogond and get the Silver Orb as my first Orb, which will be another new feat for me. It has always been the last Orb given the difficulty of Necrogond, but I don't think this team will have any trouble. I'm saving Orochi for last so I can really crush her.

Thanks for reading.

User Info: KongZhou

KongZhou
1 year ago#16
You mention skipping Eginbear. I know it's otherwise a pretty useless destination, but don't you need the Vase of Drought for that one orb? Or am I confusing what treasure is in the Sunken Cave?

User Info: Roundman

Roundman
1 year ago#17
KongZhou posted...
You mention skipping Eginbear. I know it's otherwise a pretty useless destination, but don't you need the Vase of Drought for that one orb? Or am I confusing what treasure is in the Sunken Cave?


I don't think that you need the Vase of Drought to obtain any Orb, so long as you have the Open spell.
From what I recall, the only reason you need the Vase is to raise the Sunken Shrine, and the only thing in the Sunken Shrine is the Final Key. Since I don't need the Final Key, I won't need to go to Eginbear to get the Vase.

User Info: KongZhou

KongZhou
1 year ago#18
Gotcha, my memory was way off then :)

User Info: Roundman

Roundman
1 year ago#19
I discovered one more quirk of the Keyless game- you can't get the Golden Claw. The Golden Claw is behind a Magic Key door in the second basement of the Pyramid. Spells, including Open, do not work on that floor, so there's no way though the door. I was thinking about using the Golden Claw to fight Troll Kings in the Cave Northwest of Tantegel in an attempt to get a Thor's Sword, but that's not an option for this quest.

User Info: Roundman

Roundman
1 year ago#20
I finished my playthrough this morning, beating Zoma without much of a problem. I have been playing on my original cartridge that I got for my birthday over 25 years ago. I can still remember reading the walkthrough for it in Nintendo Power and hardly being able to get my hands on it, then being so excited and proud when I finally had the game (and the manual, and the poster). Amazingly, the original battery still works over 25 years later - but for who knows how long? This might have been my final playthrough of DW3 on NES. It was fun to do so in this way, doing things in a sequence that differed from the developers' intentions.

Now that I have played a basically keyless game and have seen the results, I really only have one question left about DW3. It's possible to skip Kandar 1 and still fight Kandar 2 in the cave near Baharata to get the Black Pepper. If you do that, the game progresses as normal and you still get the ship. Eventually, if you defeat Baramos and go to Tantegel, you'll run into a reformed Kandar in Brecconary. But what happens if you then go to the Tower of Shanpane? Will Kandar still be there with the Golden Crown in his criminal Kandar 1 form? Given that events in this game seem to be scripted independently from one another and triggered based solely on your party being at a given location, I assume that he would still be at Shanpane in criminal form despite simultaneously being accessible in Tantegel as a reformed criminal. I wish that I would have tested this out during this run, but the thought didn't occur to me until after I had already beaten him in Shanpane. If someone else is doing a run sometime, this would be something interesting to test.
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