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User Info: BTB

BTB
6 years ago#21
Averlus posted...
Averlus posted...
BTB posted...
...that said, my current line of thought is simply to halve the effectiveness of Stamina for attack checks (1/256 instead of 1/128).


I dislike that solution tremendously as it works counter to my stated goal of bringing stamina boosts back in line with the other stat boosts.


I should restate that. I don't dislike the solution itself, I just dislike it for the purposes of this discussion. Since we're already talking about adjusting stamina and stamina-related effects, this is a perfect time to work on moving stamina boosts to +1/+2 like everything else, and not just put a band-aid on the issue and consider it fixed.


Again, the only problem I have with the idea of moving stamina bonuses to more normal values is that it would involve reworking each individual case where we've dealt with it. Aurabolt is easy; morph and dance probably won't be. And that still doesn't address the fact that stamina is still a poor choice for other characters.

...more to the point, I believe that bringing the Stamina boosts down to normal would involve significant reworking of the regen formulas (and probably the seizure formula along with it).
"Good luck and good gaming." -Klaravoyia

User Info: Averlus

Averlus
6 years ago#22
Stamina has no impact on seizure, or any periodic damage. And as I said, I'm actually fine with reeling in regen healing a bit across the board. It should be a supplement to direct healing, not a replacement for it as it's turned into on a few characters.

I don't think figuring out dance and morph will be all that difficult either. But even if it is, we're already back to focusing on stamina, and I hate to just slap this band-aid on it and carry on.

As far as stamina being a poor choice for some characters - so what? Not every character is going to get mileage out of every stat. If we try to make it globally useful to the same point Vigor/Magic/Speed are situationally, we're going to end up with a mountain of other balance issues.
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User Info: BTB

BTB
6 years ago#23
I know that stamina currently doesn't affect seizure damage, and one of the things that I wanted to do was make it so that it did. It would be a good way of making stamina more useful for every character, particularly if we're going down the road of reeling those bonuses in. The problem with that is that it would involve a significant rewrite of the damage formula, which seems like something I may have to sit down and do so that Regen doesn't go off the rails.
"Good luck and good gaming." -Klaravoyia

User Info: Averlus

Averlus
6 years ago#24
Why exactly does stamina have to be useful for every character? I'm not following your line of reasoning here.

I think the crux of the problem is that everyone has a stamina boost, so everyone needs to have a use for it. Frankly, that's a fairly asinine design concept that I wasn't aware we had implemented.

Edit: I realize I came across with two conflicting thoughts in this post. I had a thought at the end of the first sentence and went with it. Oh well. >_>
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User Info: BTB

BTB
6 years ago#25
Well, stamina is essentially a stand-in for defense in this case (albeit a very derivative one), which is typically a stat that wouldn't considered to be "wasted" on any character. The fact that everybody has a stamina boost is mostly a variety issue; since there were only so many stats I had to work with, I tossed stamina around a lot to fill space. Take Cyan, for example, and the headaches I had trying to make Kirin anything other than a waste on him.

And, really, every base stat *should* be universally useful to some degree (excepting, arguably, vigor/magic on the one or two characters who really don't utilize either one).
"Good luck and good gaming." -Klaravoyia

User Info: Averlus

Averlus
6 years ago#26
I understand stamina's role as a defensive stat. My point remains that it doesn't need to be useful beyond that to everyone. Spreading it around like candy was not really a good idea because, if we wanted to make it anything beyond a dump stat, it was invariably going to lead to the predicament we're currently in.

I disagree rather strongly with the premise that every base stat should be universally desirable. Speed and stamina, sure, but that's because those two stats work independently of the character's fighting style. Vigor has no place being useful to Relm, and similarly, Cyan's magic power should be mostly irrelevant.

I still don't know why everyone needs stamina boosts. Calling it "variety" is silly, as granting everyone that particular boost is quite the opposite of variety.
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User Info: BTB

BTB
6 years ago#27
Averlus posted...
I understand stamina's role as a defensive stat. My point remains that it doesn't need to be useful beyond that to everyone.


Yeah, we're on the same page here. My goal in this is to make it at least marginally useful as an abstract defense stat, just without the ability to go overboard with it. It's kind of the same situation we initially faced with magic where anyone focusing too heavily on it could go way further off the rails than we wanted them to.

Averlus posted...
I disagree rather strongly with the premise that every base stat should be universally desirable. Speed and stamina, sure, but that's because those two stats work independently of the character's fighting style. Vigor has no place being useful to Relm, and similarly, Cyan's magic power should be mostly irrelevant.


That's what I meant when I said "except arguably the one or two characters who don't make use of either one". I probably could have worded that better.

Averlus posted...
I still don't know why everyone needs stamina boosts. Calling it "variety" is silly, as granting everyone that particular boost is quite the opposite of variety.


Simply put, there just aren't enough stats to go around otherwise. Not counting HP and MP, there are only four core stats, and one of those four (vigor or magic) isn't useful to certain characters. Really, HP and what amounts to defense are the only two that are universally useful.

(Well, okay, speed is too)
"Good luck and good gaming." -Klaravoyia

User Info: Averlus

Averlus
6 years ago#28
BTB posted...
Averlus posted...
I understand stamina's role as a defensive stat. My point remains that it doesn't need to be useful beyond that to everyone.


Yeah, we're on the same page here. My goal in this is to make it at least marginally useful as an abstract defense stat, just without the ability to go overboard with it. It's kind of the same situation we initially faced with magic where anyone focusing too heavily on it could go way further off the rails than we wanted them to.


The problem is, it's fully possible to go off the rails with stamina; the higher bonus values see to that.

Maybe the main issue here is that stamina is *too* useful to Sabin. The way he uses it definitely mandates a nerf (I'm thinking beyond just limiting his armor selection), which we'll need to make sure does not indirectly affect those that have a little less use for it.

Simply put, there just aren't enough stats to go around otherwise. Not counting HP and MP, there are only four core stats, and one of those four (vigor or magic) isn't useful to certain characters. Really, HP and what amounts to defense are the only two that are universally useful.

(Well, okay, speed is too)


There's no real reason not to count HP when considering how to dole out bonuses, so you're still working with at least four useful stats per character (HP, stamina, speed, and either vigor or magic power). And really, just because a stat is useful to someone doesn't mean they need a way to boost it.

This is probably something for 2.0, but I really don't like how widespread stamina boosts are, and I'd like to cut back on who gets them.
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User Info: BTB

BTB
6 years ago#29
Averlus posted...
The problem is, it's fully possible to go off the rails with stamina; the higher bonus values see to that.


Indeed. That's the problem we need to rectify, which I intend to first address on the base level before adjusting how stamina applies to each character individually.

Stamina is universally applicable for two, possibly three purposes:

-Avoiding stamina-based attacks
-Increasing regen healing
-Decreasing seizure damage (proposed)

Concerning the first role, I like the idea, but I've seen it to be a bit too effective in practice. Even with "normal" stamina values, I don't think I'd like to see anyone with more than, say a 1 in 3 (!additional) chance of avoiding such attacks.

Concerning the second, I'd prefer boosting your stamina to have a more linear effect than it currently does, so that a small amount of investment will be worth it but a larger one won't result in a nigh-unkillable battle god. Again, I'd probably have to sit down and come up with a new formula for best results, provided you have no objections to or issues with implementing it?

Concerning the third, if the first two applications were brought more in line along with the stat boosts themselves, then introducing this wouldn't be making stamina *too* prominent. The effect would be probably *much* more minor than with regen, though, and given that both share the same formula, there may be issues with implementing it. I'm willing to concede this one if its an issue and we feel that the above two applications make stamina appropriately attractive stat.

Averlus posted...
Maybe the main issue here is that stamina is *too* useful to Sabin. The way he uses it definitely mandates a nerf (I'm thinking beyond just limiting his armor selection), which will indirectly affect those that have a little less use for it.


Well, all three of his stamina-based attacks are going to get dragged into line as a result of adjusting stamina, and I'd like to get that much done before thinking that he might need to be nerfed even further (largely because, at that point, I'm not even sure how I'd go about it).

Averlus posted...
This is probably something for 2.0, but I really don't like how widespread stamina boosts are, and I'd like to cut back on who gets them.


Pretty much, yeah. Removing some of those stamina bonuses is going to mean putting more HP bonuses in, which is going to involve a bit more work than I would prefer to put into the next update.
"Good luck and good gaming." -Klaravoyia

User Info: Averlus

Averlus
6 years ago#30
BTB posted...
Concerning the first role, I like the idea, but I've seen it to be a bit too effective in practice. Even with "normal" stamina values, I don't think I'd like to see anyone with more than, say a 1 in 3 (!additional) chance of avoiding such attacks.


If part of the concern is that a 128-stamina character is feasible, then it will require more than bumping the stamina check up to 1/256 to ensure this.

Concerning the second, I'd prefer boosting your stamina to have a more linear effect than it currently does, so that a small amount of investment will be worth it but a larger one won't result in a nigh-unkillable battle god. Again, I'd probably have to sit down and come up with a new formula for best results, provided you have no objections to or issues with implementing it?


I have no idea how difficult it would be to modify the periodic effect formulas, depending on what you have in mind. I've already isolated where it uses stamina, so working off of that would be the easiest route.

Concerning the third, if the first two applications were brought more in line along with the stat boosts themselves, then introducing this wouldn't be making stamina *too* prominent. The effect would be probably *much* more minor than with regen, though, and given that both share the same formula, there may be issues with implementing it. I'm willing to concede this one if its an issue and we feel that the above two applications make stamina appropriately attractive stat.


I've already separated how periodic healing and periodic damage use stamina, so modifying that much is not difficult. But just as above, I haven't looked into modifying the formula itself.

Well, all three of his stamina-based attacks are going to get dragged into line as a result of adjusting stamina, and I'd like to get that much done before thinking that he might need to be nerfed even further (largely because, at that point, I'm not even sure how I'd go about it).


I'm not even concerned about Aura Bolt. It's mainly how people are using Mantra as a primary heal and turning him into a mana battery with Chakra (which was one of my main concerns about the ability). The first thing I can think of is just to reduce the effect stamina has on how much each of those abilities restore.
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