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User Info: iovandrake

iovandrake
5 years ago#1
Why do they have intrinsic stealth? How does that make sense for their class?

User Info: ahaeckerlin

ahaeckerlin
5 years ago#2
Did you ever see beautiful women escort away the souls of the dying? If they're real, they're stealthy.
Tjr at the NetHack wiki: http://nethackwiki.com

User Info: iovandrake

iovandrake
5 years ago#3
Armored viking women do not strike a stealthy image. They would not be sneaking anywhere. Skulking from shadow to shadow without making a sound doesn't describe Valkyries. It's obvious they were given stealth just because they were favored as a class by someone.

User Info: ahaeckerlin

ahaeckerlin
5 years ago#4
Fair enough. Lots of game feature look like they stem from an devteam-internal battle between balancers and powergamers. It's quite conceivable the powergamers wanted to give valks an advantage, and made up some half-believable cover story.
Tjr at the NetHack wiki: http://nethackwiki.com

User Info: iovandrake

iovandrake
5 years ago#5
My main gripe isn't that I think Valkyries should just be nerfed. It doesn't fit them and I don't think they should have it, but my reason is mainly because it devalues the intrinsic for other classes that don't have the other advantages Valkyries enjoy. They have the stealth intrinsic for a reason, but that is ruined when stealth is found even on classes that don't really reflect the idea of stealth.

User Info: Robot2600

Robot2600
5 years ago#6
Quite simply I think they are meant to be the strongest class and were given stealth so that new players don't just quit playing forever.

It kinda makes sense to me though. As battle hardened warriors (and lets argue that they aren't ACTUALLY Valkyries but simply warrior-women or "amazons") then they could easily be trained in guerrilla tactics. They are the sneaky knights, and fill the niche nicely. Knights get armor and charge into battle. A Valkyrie might just slit your throat and go about her business. Light on her feet, and quiet in her armor, unlike the Knight who would be stomping around.

EDIT: Actually it makes a LOT of sense if you consider Vikings. Vikings aren't going to fight you in a fair fight if they have the chance, they'd much rather roll up into town at night and kill everything while it's sleeping. Sure they still have the concept of Honor and dying gloriously in battle, but there is nothing against using guile to win a fight either (compare to knights and samurai who would frown on underhanded tactics).

You can even observe some steathy tactics in Beowulf, the actual old-English poem which is one of our bests record of viking culture. Beowulf pretends to be asleep when Grendel attacks and lets one of his men die so he can observe Grendel's tactics adn then jump on him out of the shadows (sneak attack).

Also, if you look at the Icelandic sagas, I bet you could find some instances of Vikings acting as tricksters. Everyone likes to peg Loki as the Trickster of Norse mythology, but people forget that Odin is also a trickster. This demonstrates the value that viking culture places on cunning. Odin is so much of a trickster that his Greek/Roman counterpart is Mercury (not Zues like you might think; Thor is usually associated with Zeus), known for casting sleep spells and sneak attacking giants. You can observe this parallel in the names of the days of the week. In English we have Wednesday (Woden's Day) and in French it's Mecredi (Mercury's Day).

User Info: iovandrake

iovandrake
5 years ago#7
So I take it you like Valkyries. Nothing wrong with that. Whole lot wrong with level 1 stealth on an already powerful fighting class. Regardless of your attempts to paint ninja Vikings. They used underhanded tactics sure. That included basic sneak attacks, surprises, and ambushes to be sure. Stealth in Nethack isn't about tactics at all though. It's about moving silently period. Pretty much ANY other class for that matter could be argued as stealthy from time to time or as potentially stealthy.

What about Rangers? They are supposed to be stealthy woodsman. Note the stealthy part. Yet they get stealth at level 7, but armored warrior women get it at level 1? That's logical to you?

As for difficulty I didn't say ANYTHING about Valkyries needing to lose their position. Give them some other type of intrinsic. Stealth just doesn't suit them and it being too common of an intrinsic devalues it for classes that don't have much going for them.

User Info: ahaeckerlin

ahaeckerlin
5 years ago#8
iovandrake posted...
Stealth in Nethack isn't about tactics at all though. It's about moving silently period.


Maybe you might want to take a loot what stealth actually does in this game. I've found stealth useful only for those "special rooms" full of leprechauns, throne monsters, etc. It's quite easy to avoid those.
Tjr at the NetHack wiki: http://nethackwiki.com

User Info: iovandrake

iovandrake
5 years ago#9
ahaeckerlin posted...
iovandrake posted...
Stealth in Nethack isn't about tactics at all though. It's about moving silently period.


Maybe you might want to take a loot what stealth actually does in this game. I've found stealth useful only for those "special rooms" full of leprechauns, throne monsters, etc. It's quite easy to avoid those.


I've ascended a rogue. I know what stealth does. You are forgetting lots of generally sleeping enemies who remain so due to stealth. It makes it much easier to avoid some annoying enemies or take them out one by one.

Let's not forget though that if it has as little use as you are implying (or little effect) then Valkyries not having it wouldn't be a problem, correct?

User Info: majesticmystic

majesticmystic
5 years ago#10
If it bothers you that much recompile the game so they don't have it.
If declaring my opinion is akin to declaring war, then war I shall declare on the so-called veterans.
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