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User Info: crate3333

crate3333
7 years ago#41
Primus_Ultimas posted...
When you say sewers, are you talking about the pools of green water with a grating in the middle? I come across those often enough, but I never knew you could actually get in them. How does that work? I don't think I seen anything about them in what little spoiler info I could find.

Yes. You use the grating like you would stairs ... it's a portal. I don't remember if it's up or down, but obviously one works and the other doesn't. They are timed, so it's possible you found the portal after it already closed.
The only opinion one should care about is one's own.
We did. You did. Yes we can. No.

User Info: Primus_Ultimas

Primus_Ultimas
7 years ago#42
lol, I keep trying to (q)uaff the green water like a fountain for mutations. Guess I'll have to try climbing INTO the grating, which actually makes sense now that I thinking about it.
veritas primus et ultimas propheta
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User Info: sephka2

sephka2
7 years ago#43
Heh, heh. Xom sure makes things interesting. I'm having loads of fun playing as a chaos knight lately. Sometimes things go well. Sometimes they don't.

My latest run was going really well after I killed an ogre and took its giant spiked club. I'd also got a +6, +5 ring of slaying, so I was bashing my way through everything. Then Xom decided to make the club dance and hit me over the head a few times. Annoying to die through no fault of my own, but it really made me laugh. You don't play a chaos knight unless you're able to see the funny side.

Also reached a new record with a mountain dwarf fighter (the wiki says they're about the easiest to win with, is that still valid?). Found the entrances to the mines and the lair, but had a ring of hunger stuck on so carried on through the main dungeon looking for a scroll to shift it. Got to D:11 (I think) then got trapped between a hydra and a bunch of orcs. I know not to use sharp weapons on hydras, that's why I was running, just picked the wrong corridor to run down. Still, I'm getting better.

User Info: sephka2

sephka2
7 years ago#44
Hmm, this is interesting. I've been trying out the Spriggan Assassin I use in Sprint for the main game, and this looks to be a good run.

The first few levels were nothing special, trying to stab things, trying to fight them normally if they woke up, then running away if things got tough and coming back later. I found a few nice things including a short sword of flaming, a short sword of speed and some needles of paralysis. I also found a spellbook that seemed too advanced for me at the time. It later turned out to be the book of Annihilations! I could have some fun with that one if I survive long enough.

I was quite surprised when I got to the temple alive, but there I was. I wasn't too sure which god to go for, but eventually chose Vehumet. I can see myself using magic in the future to aid my stealth, and Sif Muna wasn't interested in me at the time.

The levels after the temple were a bit of a pain. I ran into Sigmund and a bunch of Orcs at the same time, but was able to stair-hop the orcs to get rid of them, then zap Sigmund with a wand of disintegration (I love the special effects with that one!)

Then I had some trouble when I ran into a few humans and Blork the Orc, and had to run away. I fell down a shaft and started exploring the next level, planning to come back a bit later, then had trouble with some killer bees. While exploring, I open a door and...

"19 orcs and 3 orc warriors come into view."
"The orc warrior shouts!"

I run. Fast. I don't want anything to do with that lot for quite a while. I go upstairs and run into Blork again. A couple of the humans go down OK, but I have to lure one upstairs. He's just not dying. Then I hover the mouse on him and it seems he has a shiny chainmail and a runed large shield. Typical, a dwarf fighter could have used those, and the broadaxe on the floor above. I see Crawl's RNG has a similar sense of irony to Nethack's.

For Blork himself I go for my curare and manage to bring him down, but I only have one curare needle left. Turns out the entrance to the Orc mines is on this floor. I thought it would be behind the army on the floor below. I poked my head in and looked around, but backed up when I disturbed an orc warrior. Those guys hit too hard.

So now I have a dilemma. I can try to do some of the mines, and fight a horde of orcs, or I can go down a floor and... fight a horde of orcs. Either way, it looks like trouble ahead. Any advice?

User Info: Primus_Ultimas

Primus_Ultimas
7 years ago#45
Well, from my still rather limited experience, if you have found a store you want stuff from hit the mines, otherwise keep pressing on. A horde of orcs is a horde of orc no matter where they are. Something else to consider, the mines maps tend to be more compact than a regular map. This could possible have an effect on tactics and placements and whatnot.
veritas primus et ultimas propheta
If you want to know, just ask. My listed email is dead

User Info: Primus_Ultimas

Primus_Ultimas
7 years ago#46
Trying out various transmuters, spriggan seems like the obvious choice to be able to run circles and lob exploding potions, but theyre so frail they have a very difficult time getting started. After I killed off a few SpTr I switched to sludge elf. They trade the speed for being more robust and an apparently easier start. Orcs, gobs, and kobs provide enough pots to hurl so far, and I found half a dozen poisoned javelins to go with that. Last ditch effort is a whip until I find something more compatable, hopefully before I invest too much XP into M&F.

I have a couple questions regarding spell choices:

Obviously I have fulsome distillation and evaporate, confusion and poison are an awesome combo. Are there any other potions worth hucking? If I accidently 'splode something else like say healing, will it heal an enemy? I'm sure it would, but I like to know for sure.

Related to the previous question, can I purposely vape a heal pot to heal myself and nearby cohorts simultaneously? Does it lose efficacy when used in such a manner?

What happens with some of the not-so-obvious pots like restore ability, porridge, and water? Do they still just function as per quaffing?

Spell levels are somewhat limited in the beginning, what should my next spell be: spider form, ice form, blade hands? I found a second book already, it appears to have mostly necro spells like regen, create/control/dispell undead, vamp drain. Any of these worth getting early on in place of the above choices?

Is there anything specific I should be on the lookout for? between hurling pots and poisoned javelins I took down Jessica real easy, but I'm sure once I start seeing NPCs with resists it won't be such a cakewalk. I'm thinking I should start stockpiling darts or stones for when I hit orc hordes, Magicks are an augmentation for this class and it's already apparent I am going to need to learn to fight physically.
veritas primus et ultimas propheta
If you want to know, just ask. My listed email is dead

User Info: crate3333

crate3333
7 years ago#47
So now I have a dilemma. I can try to do some of the mines, and fight a horde of orcs, or I can go down a floor and... fight a horde of orcs. Either way, it looks like trouble ahead. Any advice?

Find another staircase and run past the horde of orcs and go deeper into the dungeon (skip the entire floor if you have to). Don't try the mines, they're really bad for stabby characters because of the sheer volume of enemies. Even my lategame Spriggans with Invisibility active don't get too many stabs in in the mines.

Re: Transmuters:

I think Spriggans seem like an awful race for Transmuters because Transmuters are primarily a melee class that happens to have buff spells, like Crusaders (except Tm gets a much stronger starting spellbook)--and Spriggans don't want to go toe-to-toe with enemies because they're too squishy. Sludge Elves and Merfolk are easily the best races for Transmuters: Sludge Elves are more flexible because of their better Spellcasting and spell school aptitudes (especially Necromancy, since its variety works nicely with how a Tm plays and you train it via Fulsome Distillation anyway); Merfolk have better Dodging and Charms as their highlights, as well as their self-transformation in water, which I find surprisingly useful. Felids may be good as well but I don't have enough experience to say.

Obviously I have fulsome distillation and evaporate, confusion and poison are an awesome combo. Are there any other potions worth hucking? If I accidently 'splode something else like say healing, will it heal an enemy? I'm sure it would, but I like to know for sure.

Degeneration is 50% of the time a miasma cloud (think curare) and I believe decay is always miasma, so those are the real heavy hitters. The other 50% degeneration is still a poison cloud. Other potions mainly produce a random type of cloud, which I believe includes fire, ice, poison, mephitic, and probably steam and decay. They're always harmful.

Water is actually pretty obvious; it's always steam. I believe porridge is too, but I've never actually chucked one because I've never had any at a time when steam is still effective.

Spell levels are somewhat limited in the beginning, what should my next spell be: spider form, ice form, blade hands? I found a second book already, it appears to have mostly necro spells like regen, create/control/dispell undead, vamp drain. Any of these worth getting early on in place of the above choices?

Spider form for sure. It gives you an attack steroid (both damage and to-hit, as well as poison on-hit) and a speed boost and in all likelihood will increase your survivability despite losing your armor bonuses because it gives an EV boost also. It remains useful throughout the endgame, even if just for the speed boost.

Blade hands is the defining spell of a Transmuter. This is your bread-and-butter once it's castable. It gives you an absolutely massive damage boost while it's active, and you will shred basically anything that tries to take you on in melee. You just have to watch out for stuff that deals huge damage in few hits--especially hydras. The reason you learn spider form first is because you won't have blade hands castable for a while, since it's a level 5 spell.

Ice form is good, particularly for the Lair, Swamp, Snake, and Shoals, but isn't quite on the same level as blade hands most of the time. You can learn it or you can skip it, since it tends to be at least as difficult to cast as blade hands.

(more in next post)
The only opinion one should care about is one's own.
We did. You did. Yes we can. No.

User Info: crate3333

crate3333
7 years ago#48
If you're a Sludge Elf and you found a necro book, grab the good stuff, but wait untli you have at least Spider Form. Zombies and abominations are always nice, regeneration is a super powerful combat buff (works nicely with Transmuters), and dispel undead takes care of the majority of the poison-immune monsters you run across (unless you go into Pan or the Hells, of course). One of my Transmuter wins was a SETm who worshipped Kiku for the necro books.

To be honest, the best spells in the Transmutation school are probably the ones in the starting book. Once you get Blade Hands reliable, it's often in your best interest to turn off Transmutations and choose which other spell schools--if any--you want to funnel your experience toward to complement Blade Hands and Evaporate. The only really high-level Transmutations spell that's worth it in most cases is Necromutation. Maybe Statue Form. (Dragon Form sucks in my opinion, unless it got improved recently. I tried it once and was very unimpressed).

Is there anything specific I should be on the lookout for? between hurling pots and poisoned javelins I took down Jessica real easy, but I'm sure once I start seeing NPCs with resists it won't be such a cakewalk. I'm thinking I should start stockpiling darts or stones for when I hit orc hordes, Magicks are an augmentation for this class and it's already apparent I am going to need to learn to fight physically.

I never bother with getting a ranged weapon for Transmuters. The stuff that has dangerous ranged attacks is almost all stuff that's also vulnerable to poison (so Evaporate makes short work of them); for everything else you can actually win one-on-one with Blade Hands. If you grab Dispel Undead then you've also taken care of many of the poison-resistant monsters. What's left over is endgame stuff like major demons and orbs of fire, and hopefully you've found some other buffs (potions or spells) by that time.

For orcs in particular just chuck potions at them then cast Spider Form and finish off the stragglers. You will basically always come out with more potions of confusion than you started with, and for really dangerous groups just lead with a single poison potion before confusing the mass. They're very easy with Transmuters. In fact Transmuters are probably the class that is least afraid of orcs since they have the most reliable way to disable them (Evaporate is 1 MP and spell level lower than Mephitic Cloud, after all).

One thing to note is that Transmuters really have a lot of flexibility in which god they want to worship. I tend to default to Yredelemnul, actually, because Yred kicks in pretty early and doesn't take a ton of effort to be useful (and can kill hydras, which are one of the bigger problem enemies you'll run into). As I said Kiku can make sense, and Sif Muna is somewhat similar though I find that Sif takes a long time to start granting spellbooks because you put so much experience into your fighting skills. Nemelex is very good as well, especially since you have good panic buttons to get out of wayward hostile summons or the like. Chei is maybe the best, actually; the stat boosts he provides let you put even more experience into combat skills and the Str and Dex bonuses both significantly improve your Blade Hands--not to mention his active abilities--(and he doesn't frown on Spider Form, so you maintain escapability, which basically no other Chei-worshippers can boast!). Okawaru isn't bad either, though he may try to gift you weapons you don't want. You can make basically any god work except Trog, though Fedhas and the good gods also require you to give up fulsome distillation, which is probably not a great move.
The only opinion one should care about is one's own.
We did. You did. Yes we can. No.

User Info: Primus_Ultimas

Primus_Ultimas
7 years ago#49
Just spent the last few hours killing off a few SETr after reading your posts, and I gotta say spider form is awesome at low levels. In may of these tests it at least doubled how far I could get. On the downside, If I used it I couldn't seem to get competent with blade hands, although I was using it effectively earlier. Speaking of blade hands, what skill(s) is it based in? Unarmed? short/long blades? I imagine it would make sense to train up whatever it uses while waiting for it to cast reliably. I know when you are in spider form you fight unarmed, so if it's that then it's all cake.

Water baloons - evaporating potions of water - are quite lethal. I also find sandblast to be a nice addition when a decent staff can't be found. Haven't had the chance to meld in some necro yet, so no comment there.

With regards to religion, I usually default to Nemelex for the cards. Awesome utility gear for just about any character really, and it allows you to sacrifice all the random drops you don't normally think about.
veritas primus et ultimas propheta
If you want to know, just ask. My listed email is dead

User Info: sephka2

sephka2
7 years ago#50
I had another poke around the mines and found an orc knight and an orc sorcerer on the first floor. I ran away again. I then went back down to the orc fortress and managed to kill them all. Being so fast, I just ran around the level splitting them up then killed them in small groups. The warriors were a bit tougher, but I kept the fighting close to the stairs and managed to pull through.

Next floor down contained some new threats - a hill giant, which I managed to stab, and a couple of trolls, who woke up and forced me to use my paralysis needles so I could stab them. Still got 5 left. The entrance to the lair is on that floor.

Next floor, I found Sonja. Being familiar with the sprint, I was a bit nervous, but I managed to sneak up and stab her. I've added a short sword of venom to my collection and restocked on curare. I'm now starting to get burdened, so I need to set up a stash and make sure I'm not lugging too much junk around with me. I may need some advice on what should stay with me at all times and what should be stashed. Anyway, here's what I have so far:

A +4, +5 dagger
A dagger of flaming
A short sword of speed
A short sword of venom

I've been enchanting the starting dagger and using it for most melee combat. I'm hoping to vorpalise it at some point, but not sure what with. Is it worth hanging on to the flaming dagger for hydras, and should I keep hold of the other swords?

A robe, an elven cloak and a wizard hat. Should I bother with the dwarven buckler? Seems worth trading one point of EV for a shield bonus of 16, but is it?

Various scrolls. Which should I keep and which should I stash?

Various potions. Same question. Are potions of mutation worth the risk or not?

An amulet of rage (currently worn), an amulet of resist corrosion and an amulet of resist mutation. Which should I wear, and should I keep the others around or stash them?

Also, it seems like Vehumet was a good choice. I found a ring of wizardry, so more magic power, and I also just found(!) a Grand Grimoire to go with my book of Annihillations! I also found a book of conjurations so I can start training my skills for the Annihilations later. If stabbing fails, I can back up and blast things. Perhaps not the most intuitive strategy, but never mind...

Once I've got the stash set up, should I head straight to the lair or keep going through the dungeon until I find something horrible and have to come back. I've already disturbed a hill giant lower down, so I might as well start on the lair while I wait for it to go back to sleep.

I doubt I'll win with such little experience, but this is my best run so far!
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