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User Info: Primus_Ultimas

Primus_Ultimas
7 years ago#11
I almost cleared Mines a couple times, though with my TrBe/Mo. I continue to try casters, but maybe I just dont understand how they work. Or maybe I need to unlearn Nethack habits. Either way I'm planning to try a hybrid soon, so thanks for the suggestions.

Tried the red sonja sprint, I can get XL10 quite easily, but the centaur warriors give me problems, and sonja herself puts me in fits! >_< The ogre and Sig generally dictate how well I do. If the ogre has a spiked club as oposed to a regular I'm usually toast, and if Sig decides to go invis it usually leads to trouble. Other than that they fall easily.

On the topic of religion, I am a little confused. In NH I understood how it worked because it was simple: Sacrifice appropriate corpses at an aligned altar to pray sooner, and under certain conditions you get goodies. Other than that prayer is simply "dear god, im about to die. send help plz. your fav mook, melthor." SS makes religion seem more like part of the game for many reasons like making anyone be able to worship whatever god(dess) you choose, because they are individualized and do/like/dislike different things. I have a few questions though:

Do all dieties acknowledge general "rescue me" prayers?
Do any of them require sacking at the altar?
I never got god-gifts inNH, and I have only seen Nemelex hand out cards (a whole other topic for discussion). do all gods grant gifts, and, if so, do they require differnt methods of making this happen, and what determines what you get?
Xom is a bastard, why would anyone choose to follow that psychopath?
veritas primus et ultimas propheta
If you want to know, just ask. My listed email is dead
(edited 7 years ago)

User Info: crate3333

crate3333
7 years ago#12
Primus_Ultimas posted...
Do all dieties acknowledge general "rescue me" prayers?

Almost none do, in fact. Elyvilon can protect you if you pray, and The Shining One will occasionally nullify an otherwise-fatal attack. Zin has Sanctuary at high enough piety. I believe that's it (Yred can damage enemies for hurting you, which I suppose is similar). Gods are on the whole more pro-active than reactive in Crawl ... and unlike in Nethack, they expect you to be able to stay alive on your own.

Do any of them require sacking at the altar?

No. There are a few who accept sacrifices only at an altar (Sif Muna and one of the good gods IIRC) but the majority accept sacrifices with a simple prayer over the object of sacrifice. None of the few who accept altar-only sacrifices require them to raise piety and I nearly forgot they even exist.

I never got god-gifts inNH, and I have only seen Nemelex hand out cards (a whole other topic for discussion). do all gods grant gifts, and, if so, do they require differnt methods of making this happen, and what determines what you get?

Most give out some gifts, which you get simply by raising piety. In most cases, this means killing stuff or killing stuff and then sacrificing corpses.

Xom is a bastard, why would anyone choose to follow that psychopath?

He makes games interesting. Crawl doesn't try terribly hard to make all routes to victory the same difficulty, after all. If you actually survive he tends to turn your character into a highly-mutated freak, but similarly if you survive the mutations tend to be helpful in the end. I think he's generally more beneficial than harmful if you're keeping him interested ... but when he decides to be mean, yes, he usually really messes you up.

---

I killed off my SENm somewhere in Vaults I believe. Silly overconfidence as usual, coupled with a disastrous sticky flame incident that mangled my scroll stock. I managed to score a lajatang of speed off of Agnes before I died though.
---
The only opinion one should care about is one's own.
We did. You did. Yes we can. No.

User Info: medicority

medicority
7 years ago#13
I've ascended in nethack a few times but couldn't get past level 2 on crawl. didn't like it at all.

User Info: Primus_Ultimas

Primus_Ultimas
7 years ago#14
I understand what you mean about dying on level 2. Sometimses Sigmund shows up with half a dozen other NPCs and there's really nothing you can do about it but start over.

I just had my best run so far. TrMo following Nemelex of course, and I got enough piety to see the first couple granted abilities. Found an early 3/4 ring of slaying and that is pretty much the most important find in the game. Drank from a few magick fountains and ended up trading a point of STR and DEX for stronger regeneration. antennae on my head. and the ability to randomly rage after so many rounds of melee combat. This last really helped me get as far as I did, especially when combined with that ring of slaying I found earlier.

Made it to the mines again, but took a detour. Right next to the first downstairs was a portal with black flags, and the message had me thinking it would go away if I didn't go in, so I did. The mapper on the right side of the screen said I was on The Bailey. Looked like a small group of rooms full of orcs and goblins in a variety of equipment, with one orc warlord who had some kind of highly resistant to magic armor that was red and a crossbow that shoots flames. Oh, and it seemed to be really really fast. I did take it down, but was too wounded to fight off the last couple gnolls and orc warriors.

lol, I stacked up a buncha axes in a variety of flavors for one big prayer. Took up four rows of inventory space on the floor. I think it took six or seven pages of messages to finish. I got two plain decks from it all ^_-
veritas primus et ultimas propheta
If you want to know, just ask. My listed email is dead

User Info: crate3333

crate3333
7 years ago#15
If you make it a point to run instead of fight Sigmund shouldn't kill you terribly often, especially if you're playing one of the strong early race/class combinations. Personally I find early orc priests scarier in general because they can come in groups (often alongside orc wizards, which can haste so you can't run!) and their smiting hurts. Other dangerous stuff like Ogres or Ice Beasts or uniques can usually just be led back toward an upstairs, and then you scamper up the steps safely and just explore the rest of the level.

Imps which get hold of a ranged weapon are also terrifying unless you're really powerful because they're unkillable and their random blinking means they threaten a very large area.

Or you can just play transmuters and kill (almost) everything because Evaporate is the most overpowered spell in the game.

Drank from a few magick fountains and ended up trading a point of STR and DEX for stronger regeneration. antennae on my head. and the ability to randomly rage after so many rounds of melee combat.

Better hope that an untimely berserk doesn't leave you slowed or fainted in a bad position, especially since I doubt you're very stealthy. That mutation is one of the most deadly in the game to be afflicted by in my opinion, up there with teleportitis and blurry vision. In particular it makes all of Vaults deadly and means you can't even risk punching through measly 5's you see in the Abyss, lest you start raging and end up slowed. But then I've always been pretty bad at using berserk well.

Related to mutations, I have two games going on different computers right now. In one, my Merfolk quaff-ID'd a potion of mutation and ended up with quickness, cold resistance, and sense surroundings from pretty much the single best !oMut I've ever quaffed. In the other, my Sludge Elf scored shock resistance from a miscast of Blade Hands. I'm probably going to nuke my Merfolk's mutations by forgetting and quaffing an un-ID'd potion of cure mutation knowing how I've been playing though....
The only opinion one should care about is one's own.
We did. You did. Yes we can. No.

User Info: Primus_Ultimas

Primus_Ultimas
7 years ago#16
Usually when I encounter NPCs I can handle them on their own, or with a few bits of fodder (small snakes, kobolds, and the like.) Even Siggy isn't much of an issue if I'm playing my TrMos. When they start showing up in twos and threes and fours and multiple groups on the same floor, thats when it gets a little tougher. On the bright side, Stone Soup is starting to teach me to run from certain things. Maybe my nethack skill will go up?
veritas primus et ultimas propheta
If you want to know, just ask. My listed email is dead

User Info: crate3333

crate3333
7 years ago#17
Sure Trolls can kill everything too (just like any of the strong Transmuter races can, or Berserkers). You should still run from them if you're not a particularly strong early class, and once you learn that you will die far less often. Other great ways to increase your life expectancy are always fighting in already-explored hallways if possible (so you're at worst facing one enemy) and always carrying stones/darts to weaken up anything you run into.

The thing with running away in Nethack is that it doesn't work. Like, if you're running because you found some enemy when you were at 1/3 HP or something okay, that works fine. But if you're running because something in Nethack can kill you 1-on-1 you're just screwed. There is quite often only one path from the upstairs to the downstairs, so unless you want to dig and try to get lucky (and then have a roadblock in your way if you want to go back upward) you have to go through the enemy, and since most of them will chase you back to the upstairs you need to do that to some degree anyway. Crawl gives you options to go around. Of course the flip side is that basically nothing in Nethack can actually 1v1 your character, whereas in Crawl there are a ton of enemies that are dangerous even alone when you're at full HP and MP.
The only opinion one should care about is one's own.
We did. You did. Yes we can. No.

User Info: Primus_Ultimas

Primus_Ultimas
7 years ago#18
OKAY, what am I still doing wrong with casters? I keep trying different elven combinations looking for a decent hybrid, but it doesn't work out. I try spriggans, and they don't seem to be able to dish out damage quickly enough. It's frustrating really. Or is it just based on luck to see what spellbooks you can find besides what you start with? Trolls rip through everything up to seventh or eighth dungeon level before they start slowing down, but they don't use much gear and make for terrible casters, so there isn't much room for improvement beyond religion.

I tried a few draconian crusaders. Seems like it should be nearly as good as my troll monks, but for some reason I can't seem to get them to work. I like the idea behind the crusader, a primarilly melee fighter with a stack of juicy buffs is very appealing. Should I just be trying a different race with the crusader?
veritas primus et ultimas propheta
If you want to know, just ask. My listed email is dead

User Info: crate3333

crate3333
7 years ago#19
0.8 has been out for about a week and a half now, by the way, so I recommend updating if you haven't. For one thing, heavy armor doesn't suck any more! Also a new race (Felids) and new god (Ashenzari), neither of which I know much about yet.

I tried a few draconian crusaders. Seems like it should be nearly as good as my troll monks, but for some reason I can't seem to get them to work. I like the idea behind the crusader, a primarilly melee fighter with a stack of juicy buffs is very appealing. Should I just be trying a different race with the crusader?

If you're dying pre-lair, the only race/class combinations that will approach the survivability of your troll monks are probably Sludge Elf or Merfolk transmuters. Like I said above, Trolls are the strongest race early-game to begin with, and it is not by a small margin. In addition Draconians are, in my opinion anyway, one of the more difficult races because you have huge strengths to leverage (particularly before you become an adult) yet you still level slowly and have average aptitudes. You should stop comparing casters, especially classes with a weak early game (like crusaders) to the strongest earlygame race in Crawl, and start comparing to something that's strong but not overpoweringly so, like perhaps a Hill Orc Fighter ... otherwise you'll be disappointed with everything but maybe transmuters.

On hybrids: (the "weapon-mage" group in 0.8)

Crusaders are very weak until XL: 3 and then you have to judiciously use your berserk to make up for your lower weapon skills compared to fighters or gladiators. I'm actually not sure how they are in lategame any more now that enchantments is split up ... in previous versions between haste and silence and their other buffs they were a real powerhouse of a class if they lived long enough to get there. I suspect the same is still true, just maybe not as powerful any more. Particularly good races to try are high elves and merfolk (with merfolk you might want to approach this by playing an ice mage like a crusader).

Enchanters are the stabby class, and thus well-suited to spriggans. You get to XL: 2 however you like (yes spriggans deal low damage, but that's not terribly important at level 1) then you just stab everything. Ensorcelled Hibernation puts almost anything living to sleep eventually, and Spriggans tend to be stealthy enough to cast it one space away from an enemy and still be able to stab. Non-living stuff, you can sneak up on to stab or you can just avoid. Hope to find Petrify for late-game (particularly the Crypt) or pick up a god who will take out tough stuff for you (Nemelex is probably the best bet now that Okawaru doesn't give Might any more, since legendary decks of summoning are really strong). Spriggans are the obvious race to try here.

(more next post)
The only opinion one should care about is one's own.
We did. You did. Yes we can. No.

User Info: crate3333

crate3333
7 years ago#20
Transmuters are probably the single most powerful early-game class in Crawl, and they remain strong late-game. Personally I think they're the easiest class overall once you figure them out, because their starting skill book is crazy good and their starting skills are nice too. The two-spell combo of fulsome distillation and evaporate gives you at XL: 2 and for 3 spell slots the power of a level 5 spell (Poison Cloud). It also gives you Mephitic Cloud, which is one of the most powerful level 3 spells. So if you run into anything difficult, you can poison it or confuse it if it's vulnerable (which is virtually everything early game except Ice Beasts). Then you pick up Spider Form, which gives you a massive boost to your to-hit chance, makes you poison on-hit, and gives you an EV and speed boost, and at XL: 3 if you cast it successfully you can actually kill imps. Blade hands is the capper to the spellbook and turns your hands into, well, blades, which provides a giant damage boost. Sticks-to-snakes is also pretty good but I usually skip it for an earlier spider form. Ice form is okay but tends to be harder to cast than blade hands for less reward. Sludge Elves and Merfolk are the strongest transmuters (maybe Felids too actually, transmutation seems to have nice synergy with a class unable to wear armor or wield weapons).

I don't know much about current stalkers, and warpers are weak in general, so I won't talk about those much.

Ice elementalists, air elementalists, necromancers, and summoners can all lend themselves to being hybrids as well if you want. Strong combinations there are MfIE (plays like a crusader), SENm, KeNm, KeSu.

If you're looking for a pure spellcaster type, Deep Elves are probably your best bet most of the time. I recommend starting off as a conjuror, fire elementalist, or necromancer depending on your tastes. Summoners can work also.

As far as spellbooks go, yes, they're random except for what your god provides. Vehumet will always give you three books of conjuration spells and three books of summoning spells at various piety levels. Kiku will give you three or four necromancy books. Sif Muna will eventually provide you access to every spell in the game by gifting books. Playing a strong spellcaster means one of two things: either you secure the necessary spells via your god, or you play a race that is flexible enough to make use of whatever you find. The former approach is generally better for pure casters (you cannot rely on luck so much because you need some of the rarer spells to remain good lategame); either approach can work for hybrids. Transmuters, for instance, tend to not really need any spells past the four they learn from their starting book, so they can go into necromancy if they find a book for that, or they can pick up some hexes or charms, or they can pick an elemental school to master, etc. Crusaders are likely to find other spells that mesh with their style even without adopting Sif to ensure it, for instance. And hybrids can always stop funneling exp to their spell skills and put more into their combat skills if you find yourself lacking in spell options.
The only opinion one should care about is one's own.
We did. You did. Yes we can. No.
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