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  3. A couple of things: Patra's behaviour and abusing the 10TH ENEMY with an Old Man

User Info: avengah

avengah
7 years ago#11
There is a way to fix the problem. Get hit by a Dodongo or something else (like a fireball if there is one).

I decided to watch the run that clip was from and I can answer one of your questions. You didn't know what caused a certain spawn at around 16 minutes - it was an overworld screen and the enemies came in from the right and the top of the screen. The answer is simple. Enemies that can come in from the sides of the screen will always try to come in in an anticlockwise fashion. Any empty square on the border of the screen is valid, but not a desert square (as Outlands shows). This carries over from screen to screen, so if the last spawn was on the east side near the top, the next screen will start them from the north side on the right. Does that make sense?

However, if you're too close to a spawn point, they'll skip over it and go to the next one after a small delay. So if you're stood by the only south exit of a screen and the enemies are spawning at the bottom left, there'll be a small pause then they'll start trying to spawn at the bottom right, going up the east side.

In any case, watch that part of the video and you can clearly see they're coming in across those screens in an anticlockwise manner.

http://www.twitch.tv/darkwing_duck_sda/b/314574617

EDIT: Oops, my mistake, it's not actually the same run as that Dodongo clip. I thought it was because it said "Zelda marathon run" at the top right. Oh well...
My Pre-Hooktail Pit Run of Paper Mario: TTYD without Mega Rush P!
Playlist: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5045EE00B4B9581F

User Info: avengah

avengah
7 years ago#12
I should confirm one or two other things. If you kill two stunned Dodongos with the sword at the exact same time, you'll only get one bomb drop; the other will drop either nothing or a normal drop (e.g. a heart). Also, if you get hit in between the time you stab a Dodongo to kill it, and the time it actually would drop the bomb, you'll also get either nothing or a normal drop. So why is this? If it's hard coded to drop a bomb when killed with the sword, why does this happen?

This is my theory. When the consecutive kill counter reaches 10 or any other number which guarantees a Blue Rupee or Bomb drop, a flag is set. Let's call this the "good drop" flag. If the e.g. tenth enemy is killed with a Bomb, another flag is set; let's call this the "tenth enemy was bombed" flag. Now, killing Dodongos doesn't affect the consecutive kill counter, so stabbing a stunned Dodongo must simply set the "good drop" flag and the "tenth enemy was bombed" flag directly.

If you get hit, however, the game not only resets the consecutive kill counter, but also clears the "good drop" flag too. So, getting hit in between killing the Dodongo and receiving its drop will clear the flag that was just set, preventing you from getting the bomb drop.

The "good drop" flag will also be cleared when you get the next drop. (Even if the next drop happens to be a fairy due to the "fairy" flag - which can happen if the tenth to fifteenth enemies killed all can't drop anything. Therefore, getting this fairy can stop you getting the bomb or blue rupee - the next enemy killed will go back to normal drop patterns.) This is why killing two Dodongos at once will only get you one bomb: the flag is set twice by killing two, but then cleared when the first drops its bomb - leaving the second to drop nothing or a normal drop.

I'm also thinking that the 16th enemy fairy flag is a timed flag. At the exact point you kill the 16th enemy, the "fairy" flag is set. This flag clears itself automatically after a certain amount of time. About a second? I'm not sure. Anyway, any enemies that can drop items will drop a fairy, guaranteed, during the time this flag is set.

These are my theories and they may not be entirely accurate, but they seem to explain what happens pretty well.
My Pre-Hooktail Pit Run of Paper Mario: TTYD without Mega Rush P!
Playlist: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5045EE00B4B9581F

User Info: avengah

avengah
7 years ago#13
Darkwing Duck: At about 51:50 in that video I linked to, you say you've just noticed something, then comment on the spawns. What do you mean? What did you notice (you didn't finish your sentence), and how do you know where the enemies are going to spawn in future rooms? I know there are only a few possible patterns, but knowing which one it'll be in advance... how?

One other minor question... what's the difference between the light and dark cyan times on the right? I think you were racing someone and they were how much you'd beaten that other guy's times by, right? But I don't understand the different shades of cyan.
My Pre-Hooktail Pit Run of Paper Mario: TTYD without Mega Rush P!
Playlist: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5045EE00B4B9581F

User Info: Darkwing Duck

Darkwing Duck
7 years ago#14
avengah posted...
I decided to watch the run that clip was from and I can answer one of your questions. You didn't know what caused a certain spawn at around 16 minutes - it was an overworld screen and the enemies came in from the right and the top of the screen. The answer is simple. Enemies that can come in from the sides of the screen will always try to come in in an anticlockwise fashion. Any empty square on the border of the screen is valid, but not a desert square (as Outlands shows). This carries over from screen to screen, so if the last spawn was on the east side near the top, the next screen will start them from the north side on the right. Does that make sense?

http://www.twitch.tv/darkwing_duck_sda/b/314574617


Looking at that particular instance, I'm more concerned with the where than the how. The counterclockwise pattern, while interesting, doesn't solve the problem. I don't like the blue moblin spawning in the way. Now, your information says that it's because of the red one spawning below. I'm more concerned with why it was starting the spawn there, and not elsewhere, for reasons related to you next question.

avengah posted...
post the second


Pretty much correlates to my personal experience with the game and how the dodongos drop their bombs.

avengah posted...
Darkwing Duck: At about 51:50 in that video I linked to, you say you've just noticed something, then comment on the spawns. What do you mean? What did you notice (you didn't finish your sentence), and how do you know where the enemies are going to spawn in future rooms? I know there are only a few possible patterns, but knowing which one it'll be in advance... how?

One other minor question... what's the difference between the light and dark cyan times on the right? I think you were racing someone and they were how much you'd beaten that other guy's times by, right? But I don't understand the different shades of cyan.


If you play the game the same way as I do, as I'm a speedrunner, you'll get the same spawns every time, meaning the the spawns will occur in the same place. There are instances where you break that pattern and the spawn locations will change. In my experience, eventually the spawn locations will normalize and I'm back to familiarity, but it takes getting a triforce piece most of the time.

In this case, I killed all the tektites on the waterfall screen. When I reenter that screen, there will be no spawning of any enemies, thus the counter that determines which spawn location it'll use (generally each screen has 1-3 spawn formations) gets unused and I'll be one behind in the counter so the entire spawn formations for level 4 will be different.

Fortunately, I was still unused to a specific set of spawn locations in level 4 as at the time I was less familiar with the second quest.

By the way, if you want to see my best runs of both quest, look here:

First quest is in two parts:

http://www.twitch.tv/darkwing_duck_sda/b/324526842
http://www.twitch.tv/darkwing_duck_sda/b/324526842

Second quest:

http://www.twitch.tv/darkwing_duck_sda/b/325974190


The program that you see on the right hand side is a timer program called Wsplit. I'm playing against a set time, in most cases, my personal best, with manually set splits. Blue numbers mean I'm ahead of my best time's pace by that amount of time and red numbers mean I'm behind pace by that amount of time. Light blue means I picked up time during that segment, and dark blue means I lost time during that segment, yet still overall ahead of pace.
Let's get Dangerous.

User Info: avengah

avengah
7 years ago#15
OK. At 16:18, you leave the screen with the spawns in question. Look at the last enemy to appear; it appears on the west side of the screen. When you re-enter the screen, the first enemy to appear enters one square south of where the previous enemy entered. Then, as you go north to the next screen, the last enemy to appear came in exactly south of your current position. So, the first enemy to appear on the next screen comes in in the first empty square anticlockwise from that position, which happens to be the southernmost east exit. This pattern will carry over the whole game - from a hard reset, the game starts at the top left corner and goes down the west side of the screen first.

The best way to understand this is to try it yourself. Go between two or three screens with enemies walking in from the sides and watch how they enter the screen. You'll see you can predict exactly where they'll enter every time. It's completely unrelated to the spawns of enemies that are already on the screen - entering enemies simply use the next available square, going anticlockwise round the screen, through the entire game, and this carries over until a hard reset.

There is one time when the pattern doesn't seem to follow. If not all the enemies have entered a screen and you're too close to where the next one would enter, there's a small delay as it moves on to the next possible position where an enemy could enter. If you leave the screen before the enemy actually enters, it'll start from where it got to when it was checking for possible entry squares, if that makes sense. Sorry, it's hard to explain but I hope you understand what I mean.

Also, as a side note, if you're on one side edge of the screen and enemies are trying to enter directly across from you on the other side, it'll count as you being too close and they won't enter from there. I assume it's to do with the way X coordinates wrap round so the far eastern edge is classed as adjacent to the western edge (but one square south on the western edge, I think, judging by watching which squares on the other side get skipped). It doesn't seem to happen at the top and bottom; this is probably because of the buffer zone (as you notice, you walk through the status when you do the scroll glitch through the top or bottom).

Since the pattern for entering enemies carries over, you could try starting a game, going east then north and south to set the starting entry point for enemies to a different place, then Up+A retry. The normal spawns won't have changed because you won't have entered a screen with normal spawns. The only change will be where the entering enemies enter from.
My Pre-Hooktail Pit Run of Paper Mario: TTYD without Mega Rush P!
Playlist: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5045EE00B4B9581F

User Info: avengah

avengah
7 years ago#16
At 44:30 in the previous video, you got a clock from the first Wallmaster, which is bad. However, you might have been better off immediately turning round, making them spawn on the left instead. That way, you'd not have had to be careful not to grab the clock, making the screen that little bit quicker, even if you ended up slightly further away from the pushable block by the time you'd killed the eighth Wallmaster - you'd still overall have saved time I think.

EDIT: Just watching this first quest run, and you didn't go back to the menu at the end of Level 5. Why did this cost you three seconds or so? Surely it doesn't matter whether you go back to the menu before or after you get the Triforce piece - surely it takes the same amount of time whenever you do it? Also, just after that point, you've got the candle out but are killing enemies for Rupees when you're right next to a +30 secret. Surely the secret would be quicker - think of the time saved trying to get Rupees from enemies and going back to collect Rupees enemies drop since you won't need them after getting that +30.

EDIT2: It's ironic that you say you need less than 30 just after that point, after getting the +100 and ignoring the +30...

EDIT3: I'm an idiot. Those next enemies in L2 needed killing for keys etc. anyway, so I get it now. Sorry! :)
My Pre-Hooktail Pit Run of Paper Mario: TTYD without Mega Rush P!
Playlist: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5045EE00B4B9581F

User Info: avengah

avengah
7 years ago#17
You gave the same link twice for the first quest.

Found it: http://www.twitch.tv/darkwing_duck_sda/b/324526980

I've watched them now. Great runs; I loved watching them! If I might make an observation, you should probably press the key to end each segment when the screen goes black, rather than when you grab the Triforce fragment. You see, recharging health takes time, so the hits you take in the dungeon should count against that dungeon's segment, not the next segment, which is what happens when that time spent refilling health is at the start of the next segment.
My Pre-Hooktail Pit Run of Paper Mario: TTYD without Mega Rush P!
Playlist: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5045EE00B4B9581F

User Info: Darkwing Duck

Darkwing Duck
7 years ago#18
avengah posted...
At 44:30 in the previous video, you got a clock from the first Wallmaster, which is bad. However, you might have been better off immediately turning round, making them spawn on the left instead. That way, you'd not have had to be careful not to grab the clock, making the screen that little bit quicker, even if you ended up slightly further away from the pushable block by the time you'd killed the eighth Wallmaster - you'd still overall have saved time I think.

EDIT: Just watching this first quest run, and you didn't go back to the menu at the end of Level 5. Why did this cost you three seconds or so? Surely it doesn't matter whether you go back to the menu before or after you get the Triforce piece - surely it takes the same amount of time whenever you do it? Also, just after that point, you've got the candle out but are killing enemies for Rupees when you're right next to a +30 secret. Surely the secret would be quicker - think of the time saved trying to get Rupees from enemies and going back to collect Rupees enemies drop since you won't need them after getting that +30.


A) Sure. I guess. Not something I'm too worried about one way or another.

B) I'm sure I said it in the context of my splits. The splits I had had me going into the menu before grabbing the triforce piece, so that three seconds would be transferred to the next split, so that split would lose time just based on that.
Let's get Dangerous.

User Info: avengah

avengah
7 years ago#19
Sorry, I was editing that last post as you posted. So yeah, in the context of your splits, the refilling health at the end of a dungeon should be in that dungeon's split. I don't think you actually mentioned splits in that video; you just mentioned the three seconds lost. I get it now, though.

I just rewatched that bit, and no, you didn't mention splits at that point in the video; you just said you'd lost three seconds.
My Pre-Hooktail Pit Run of Paper Mario: TTYD without Mega Rush P!
Playlist: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5045EE00B4B9581F

User Info: Darkwing Duck

Darkwing Duck
7 years ago#20
The way off screen enemies spawn is interesting, though. If nothing else, I should know where those enemies will start to spawn.
Let's get Dangerous.
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