why do people say wow vanilla was easy

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User Info: WizardHazard

WizardHazard
2 months ago#41
Vanilla is easy as f***.

Any average HC raider from today is better than the best Vanilla player from 2004-6

User Info: Godly_Goof

Godly_Goof
2 months ago#42
InfestedAdam posted...
Godly_Goof posted...
Lmao wut? Time has no correlation with skill at all.

I don't think anyone is suggesting time automatically improves one skill level. We're just suggesting time/repeated attempts & mistakes are a factor in some players improving themselves. Some folks will never learn no matter how many hours they put in while some will learn overtime with each attempt and mistake. Not many have a natural talent at certain skills, most people accumulate those skills from learning from previous experiences over time.

Godly_Goof posted...
I assure you their are raid groups that will 1 shot content on their first try.

There will or there have been? There's a difference in what you're saying. Suggesting some groups will is merely an opinion, not a fact.

1. Except thats basically exactly what he tried to state, "time commitment" which is a fallicy, it doesnt exist because we can tell that their is objectively no correlation to actual time commited to something and excelling because of it, effectively using limited time effectively is > using more time ineffectively. I. E. Why progression guilds commit prep time to research rather than just smash their face into a boss to try and learn on the fly.

2. Considering my old guild was able to 1 shot several old bosses back in BC and WotLK in 1 attempt then factually their were other guilds that did it too. Ergo, ya, they did 1 shot current level content sometimes to absolute most recent current level content.

redundancies posted...
Godly_Goof posted...
Except look at things like MOBAs to see how incredibly wrong you are since theyre the easiest to draw the correlation. People with thousands and thousands of hours yet still play objectively like absolute dog s***. Even in this, s*** tier players that continue to make the same damn f*** ups time and again.

You're missing my point. Just because some people don't learn from their mistakes and try to get better doesn't mean "time" cannot make you better.

Godly_Goof posted...
And in mythic content they do the research to limit wipes to a minimum, and yes, I assure you their are raid groups that will 1 shot content on their first try.

You can "assure" me all you want, but the #1 guild in the world has wiped hundreds of times on certain Mythic bosses. They beat them not because of a gear influx, but because they executed the fights better. That's borne of a skill increase by practicing the fight for a number of hours.

1. No, Im not missing your point because your objectively wrong, again, its why their are players in MOBAs who have LITTERALLY THOUSANDS of hours yet are still playing at the absolute objectively worst and lowest levels of the playerbase.

2. And those same guilds have likely also managed to 1 shot "current level" content at points in their guilds life. Hell as I said before my old guild could so I guarantee these guilds can do it too. You also seem to be missing the glaring point that, these same guilds do research going into the fights, memorizing them before starting them, theyre failing on execution not learning, if they hadnt done the prep time theyd be taking significantly longer to clear the content using the smash your face into it like youre implying which take objectively longer to do. Furthering why the "time commitment" fallicy is a joke.
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User Info: big_pimper

big_pimper
2 months ago#43
this guy solos a mythic +23 dungeon lol, omg legion so hard
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lSoFokN0Lc
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User Info: Godly_Goof

Godly_Goof
2 months ago#44
SilentZed posted...
Godly_Goof posted...
And in mythic content they do the research to limit wipes to a minimum, and yes, I assure you their are raid groups that will 1 shot content on their first try.

There's never been a raid team that has 1-shot the end boss of any raid at the highest difficulty level the first time all of them did it when it was relevant content and not several tiers behind. And no, that doesn't mean citing potential examples of 1-shots when highest difficulties were going to be released but hadn't been yet (like how mythic versions of the raids aren't available on day 1 of raid being released in Legion).

There's a several things that distinguish bad players from good players. Time IS a necessary requirement as well, and I will explain why.

1. Desire to excel - Doing anything and everything to monitor shortcomings and then correcting them. This is where practice comes into play, but is more a secondary than a primary as the motivation has to come from the person. It means never being happy with your performance until you know you are at 0% error rate and STILL aiming higher than that and trying other builds/talent loadouts. This is where time becomes a thing, explained below.

2. Dedication/discipline - Having desire is fine, but without the discipline and motivation to put in the time to practice these things, you're not going to go anywhere. Mainly because muscle memory is a thing, and practice enough that you can perform toward the top of your potential while perform all mechanics properly in a fight. Mechanics > Throughput, as they say - but in the highest level of content both are absolutely necessary. This is where time required on encounter becomes a thing because it's about not giving up and pushing through even when you've had several 1% wipes.

3. Knowing how to learn - this is a harder one to really pinpoint, but it's mostly in being able to analyze your mistakes and, if you don't know how to correct it, seeking education on how to correct it/having an open mind about there being a better way. Another way to put this is lacking complacency.

Are you the #1 across all parses for a fight? Great. Do you think it's possible you could get better? Are you sure? Have you tried all potential builds? Even if you sim everything and know what it says, simming is not the end all be all without actual hard data and practice in game and high level raiders spend LOTS of time practicing outside of raid and doing extra research.

Even if you have a terrible player, if they have these three things and push themselves, they WILL improve to their own individual potential. Without these things they will, as you say, spend literally thousands of hours never truly learning from their mistakes and never reaching their potential because they don't every truly try to reach it.

Time is a factor, but it's more accurate to say time is a consequence of good performance rather than the source. Nevertheless, still a requirement.

Secondly, doing highest content means wiping potentially hundreds of times on a boss during a progression night and never giving up. That's also a factor that, again, has time as a consequence.

Everything you just cited contradicts your own argument. The notion of "time commitment" means requiring you to sink a fixed often large amount of time into doing something before you can plausibly suceed. Everything you just cited is methods people do to maximize output during pkay time and are things that dont inherently benefit from raw time sink but effectively using time which is different. Unless youre just trying to argue time in general which the only response to is "no s*** captain obvious you have to be doing something to do something". Its why a player that plays 100 hrs doing the above will likely do better than one playing 1000 hrs and doing none of those
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User Info: SilentZed

SilentZed
2 months ago#45
Godly_Goof posted...
Its why a player that plays 100 hrs doing the above will likely do better than one playing 1000 hrs and doing none of those

I stated this specifically.

Without these things they will, as you say, spend literally thousands of hours never truly learning from their mistakes and never reaching their potential because they don't every truly try to reach it.


Also, stating time is a necessary requirement but also saying that time is not the source is not contradictory. As previously stated

Time is a factor, but it's more accurate to say time is a consequence of good performance rather than the source. Nevertheless, still a requirement.


I was making the disambiguation that while time is a requirement for practice, time alone is not a source of skill improvement. It's time practicing the right way, learning the right way, pushing yourself the right way, etc.

i.e. Time is a consequence of these good practices.

You said

Time comitment is a non factor that dumbasses try and justify being bad with.


When, yeah, it absolutely is a factor. Very few people are just "good" without practicing, and good luck getting 19 others to go in and one shot Mythic content during Cutting Edge.

High level raiding is the same, and especially your argument that Mythic raiders do research to mitigate. However, that research had to come from someone, usually people on the PTR or world first guilds, etc. SOMEONE put that work and time to make those resources/videos/guides available.

Time is a factor. You argued specifically it wasn't.

Additionally - if you can link me a world first end raid boss kill during relevant time (not several tiers ahead) that was a one shot that was achieved without an exploit, then I will concede that point as well. (Note I said relevant end raid boss, i.e. C'thun, Kel'thuzad, Kael'thas, Lady Vashj, Lich King, Yogg-Saron, etc.).

Beginning bosses are not meant to be extremely difficult content by design so that you can gear to a relative ilevel to do the content (hence a lot of griping about encounters being undertuned/overtuned).
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User Info: InfestedAdam

InfestedAdam
2 months ago#46
Godly_Goof posted...
1. Except thats basically exactly what he tried to state, "time commitment" which is a fallicy

That is simply how some players learn though. In your experience you believe otherwise that time has nothing to do with it. In my personal experience, time and repeated attempts is a factor. Not THE factor but simply one of many. I could watch a video and read up about an encounter all I want but it still will not provide me, personally, as much experience until I do the real thing. I may go in with a better understanding of what to expect but in the end it is repeated attempts that will get me through the encounter. And all those repeated attempts will take time and me willing to put in that time.

It's kinda like why we repeatedly do certain math programs over and over and over, for practice. The teacher/professor can explain the concept all they want but for some students they need the time and practice to finally grasp it.

Godly_Goof posted...
effectively using limited time effectively is > using more time ineffectively. I. E. Why progression guilds commit prep time to research rather than just smash their face into a boss to try and learn on the fly.

I feel you're mixing it up now. You went from saying time is not a factor to suggesting progression guilds still uses up time but they simply uses it in a more efficient manner. I don't disagree with you on this, like one professor told me years before, "An hour in the library will save you a week in the lab". And he's right, by not doing trial-n-error in the lab and understanding the concepts beforehand we save time and material and not repeatedly attempting and failing various experiments.

But in the end, one still need to put in the time and effort to study something, research it, and try it before being successful at it. For some unfortunately, no amount of hours will ever get them to understand certain concepts. Regardless, one still needs to put in the time and effort to learn something. No one starts off as an expert.

Godly_Goof posted...
2. Considering my old guild was able to 1 shot several old bosses back in BC and WotLK in 1 attempt then factually their were other guilds that did it too. Ergo, ya, they did 1 shot current level content sometimes to absolute most recent current level content.

Fair enough, it has happened in the past so you're assuming it can happen again.

SilentZed posted...
However, that research had to come from someone, usually people on the PTR or world first guilds, etc. SOMEONE put that work and time.

SilentZed does have a point here. I don't doubt some guilds are able to apply their previous experiences to a new encounter and still succeed but if said guild did any research at all into a new encounter, that research was based on someone else putting in the time and effort to repeatedly beat their heads against a wall until they learn something from it. A guild researching to minimize time spent wiping may not have put in the time to learn the encounter from scratch but someone still did at some point thus saving that guild time on wiping.
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User Info: SilentZed

SilentZed
2 months ago#47
There's one thing you said -

Good players will clear the content in a much shorter time than the bad players. I agree and disagree.

Good players will almost always clear the content from first pull of a said boss to first progression kill faster than the bad players, yes. I won't argue that.

However, good players also:

Do research out of game into possible strategies and minmaxing of their character.
Keeping up to date with upcoming patch changes on the PTR.
Seeking every avenue to give themselves as much gear advantage as possible, including in Legion running M+ as much as possible to earn off pieces and potential BiS/high trinkets and seeking war/titanforges AND even running LFR/Normal hoping for titanforges.

Good players still, on average, put in WAY more time than the rest of the average playerbase. Even when all of the content is on farm, they are usually:

- Selling carries (both +15 and H Ant. Before this, it was things like Moose carries in HFC, or Bear carries in Zul'aman, etc.)
- Doing research into the expac and preparing for that
- Likely playing on the PTR when it is becoming available

Good players and guilds do take breaks, but not before they've invested far more into the game than most others.

Again, time is a factor because it is required to do all of these things.
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User Info: immadbro

immadbro
2 months ago#48
WOW has always been easy...
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User Info: Silent Sniper IV

Silent Sniper IV
2 months ago#49
Coming from everquest, vanilla wow was basically, "EQ: babby edition". The QoL and polish was something a lot of us liked, because spending 12 hours in a raid wing and competing with every other guild in the server for once a week spawn mobs lost its luster after awhile (ie- anyone with a job)
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User Info: Gobstoppers12

Gobstoppers12
2 months ago#50
Vanilla was mostly just a gear check with some anti-AFK mechanics that sometimes happened. Gimmick fights weren't even hard, you just had to know the gimmick.
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