My prediction for future WOW storylines...

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User Info: Ness0123456789

Ness0123456789
2 months ago#111
immadbro posted...
Plus you claim that Arthas would be eventually killed? Are you joiking? He reached the peak of his power by the end of the game. Illidan could have been considered dead by the end of Warcraft 3, sure but Arthas, hell no. Arthas became ridiculously powerful at the end of Warcraft 3.


I honestly don't know why I'm continuing to have a discussion with someone whose clearly proven he's incapable of doing so... I mean what I just quoted here more or less speaks volumes about your ability to actually have intelligent discussions with people.

Yes. Arthas would eventually be killed off. Blizzard built him up at the end of Frozen Throne to be the main antagonist of either a potential Warcraft 4, or as he would come to be part of, World of Warcraft. In either outcome, it's ludicrous to believe that Blizzard wouldn't tie up his story and character arc by having the Heroes, be they us in WoW, or the protagonists of another RTS, destroy him at the peak of Icecrown Citadel.

He was a villain, in a Blizzard game. That was ALWAYS going to be his ultimate fate.immadbro posted...


Plus while Warcraft 3's story may be heavily inspired by Warhammer but it is told completely differently.


You must have selective reading or something - I clearly stated Warcraft 1 was a Warhammer knock off, because it was. Blizzard originally designed it to be a Warhammer fantasy RTS, but it was turned down by Games Worshop (back when they actually had quality control over their IP), and Blizzard instead reworked it into their own property.

immadbro posted...
Warcraft 1's story is fleshed out more in The Last Guardian, Warcraft 2's story is mostly a bunch of missions, not gonna lie but it connects to Warcraft 3. Plus the manuals for Warcraft 1 and 2 contain quite a bit of lore too.


So...you cry foul about Chronicle "Ruining" Warcraft's Lore because it's in a book, yet praise a poorly written novel that had to be written to give context to an RTS which had almost no plot to begin with. So what you're saying is you're a hypocrit.

immadbro posted...
Warcraft 3 did have a story, a pretty good one IMO, the ending left a lot of possibilities and some great potential. We knew the legion wasn't completely stopped, we knew that the scourge were mounting an attack, the humans of Lordaeron were on their last legs, everything went to s*** by the end of Warcraft 3 and you could tell a big war was about to erupt.


There's that selective reading again. I outright stated that Warcraft didn't stop having storytelling and fleshed out characters until Warcraft 3, which I outright praised it on. And you're right, everything in Warcraft 3 was set up for a potential sequel, which would become World of Warcraft. But even if it wasn't WoW, the end result would have been the same, as the people writing the story in WoW? They're the same god damned people who wrote the story in WC3.
Each person might see a rose with a different shade of red, but the fact that we can all agree on is beauty -- that is a miracle.
-Michea, FFXI

User Info: immadbro

immadbro
2 months ago#112
rawkuss posted...
immadbro posted...
Plus if you look on wikipedia, skinner boxes redirects to operant conditioning chambers, NOT respondent conditioning chambers.

So essentially your lecture was completely pointless.


Yes, like I said, deepest apologies because I just got too excited to talk about Behaviorism in regards to something other than how to apply it to children with special needs but I quoted myself because the explanation of what operant conditioning is was important to this discussion. But super embarrasing especially since my former employer is personal friends with Julie Vargas and I've met her on three separate occasions.

But anyways, operant conditioning/being in a skinner box applies to all games. This isn't up for debate, this is fact because everything we do in life is us manipulating the environment for cause and effect (reinforcement and punishment) as well as others manipulating the environment to increase or decrease the probability of our behaviors to meet their desired results. I'm not denying that WoW isn't one big ass skinner box, it just happens to be one of the best skinner boxes based on every measurable metric available.

Let's go all the way back to coin op arcade machines. How did they keep us putting in quarters? Even if we've already beaten a game? Depending on the individual and their own personal reinforcer... it could be bragging rights, it could be to see the ending for a different character or it could also be to get the highest score to put your name in. Either way, every video game was designed to increase the likelihood that we kept feeding the machine quarters.

Now let's move on to the games you like. Maybe Diablo 2? If you only played for the single player aspect of the game (which very few people did) you'd see that Blizzard spaced out cut scenes after each act. These cut scenes were the reinforcer for those seeking the story and by dangling the cut scene in front of the player they kept them playing through the next act. Now if you did online, why? To keep increasing your level? To get better gear? I mean seriously, how many times have you killed Mephisto? How many times for Diablo? Baal? You want to talk about loot pinatas? Let's talk about these guys.

Or we can look at Warcraft 3. You seem to be a story driven guy so let's look at your potential skinner box. Why did you play through each level? To read the dialogue in between levels for the progression of the story? To reach the next cut scene? Would you have kept playing if there was no dialogue, no description between each level? No CGI cut scenes? If it was just build your base, destroy theirs then move on to the next map to repeat, would you have played? No, because your own personal reinforcer wasn't present and since you wouldn't be coming into contact with your reinforcer then your behavior of playing WC3 would decrease. So your carrot on the stick was to find out what happens next. Now if you're an online guy then your possible reinforcer would be increasing your ranking, bragging to your friends, etc. etc. but there is ALWAYS a carrot on a stick.

Life is nothing but a bunch of interconnecting skinner boxes acting against one another. WoW just happens to be very transparent with all their different carrots and their multiple sticks. Whether or not you engage with one skinner boxes reinforcement contingency and not anothers is simply based on whether you find the outcome reinforcing or punishing.

By the way, stop looking crap up on Wikipedia. Buy this book instead: https://www.amazon.com/Applied-Behavior-Analysis-John-Cooper/dp/0131421131/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1519526285&sr=8-1&keywords=applied+behavior+analysis

There's a difference between rewarding elements and skinner boxes.
I'm still waiting for a Valkyrie Profile 3, when it happens, please wake me up so i can buy a ps4
3ds Friend Code: 1263-7002-2175

User Info: immadbro

immadbro
2 months ago#113
Ness0123456789 posted...
immadbro posted...
Plus you claim that Arthas would be eventually killed? Are you joiking? He reached the peak of his power by the end of the game. Illidan could have been considered dead by the end of Warcraft 3, sure but Arthas, hell no. Arthas became ridiculously powerful at the end of Warcraft 3.


I honestly don't know why I'm continuing to have a discussion with someone whose clearly proven he's incapable of doing so... I mean what I just quoted here more or less speaks volumes about your ability to actually have intelligent discussions with people.

Yes. Arthas would eventually be killed off. Blizzard built him up at the end of Frozen Throne to be the main antagonist of either a potential Warcraft 4, or as he would come to be part of, World of Warcraft. In either outcome, it's ludicrous to believe that Blizzard wouldn't tie up his story and character arc by having the Heroes, be they us in WoW, or the protagonists of another RTS, destroy him at the peak of Icecrown Citadel.

He was a villain, in a Blizzard game. That was ALWAYS going to be his ultimate fate.immadbro posted...


Plus while Warcraft 3's story may be heavily inspired by Warhammer but it is told completely differently.


You must have selective reading or something - I clearly stated Warcraft 1 was a Warhammer knock off, because it was. Blizzard originally designed it to be a Warhammer fantasy RTS, but it was turned down by Games Worshop (back when they actually had quality control over their IP), and Blizzard instead reworked it into their own property.

immadbro posted...
Warcraft 1's story is fleshed out more in The Last Guardian, Warcraft 2's story is mostly a bunch of missions, not gonna lie but it connects to Warcraft 3. Plus the manuals for Warcraft 1 and 2 contain quite a bit of lore too.


So...you cry foul about Chronicle "Ruining" Warcraft's Lore because it's in a book, yet praise a poorly written novel that had to be written to give context to an RTS which had almost no plot to begin with. So what you're saying is you're a hypocrit.

immadbro posted...
Warcraft 3 did have a story, a pretty good one IMO, the ending left a lot of possibilities and some great potential. We knew the legion wasn't completely stopped, we knew that the scourge were mounting an attack, the humans of Lordaeron were on their last legs, everything went to s*** by the end of Warcraft 3 and you could tell a big war was about to erupt.


There's that selective reading again. I outright stated that Warcraft didn't stop having storytelling and fleshed out characters until Warcraft 3, which I outright praised it on. And you're right, everything in Warcraft 3 was set up for a potential sequel, which would become World of Warcraft. But even if it wasn't WoW, the end result would have been the same, as the people writing the story in WoW? They're the same god damned people who wrote the story in WC3.

Who said that bad guys can't win in games? There's no rule that dictates that this has to be the case.

Your selected reading accusation is ironic considering the fact that you did exactly the same thing to me. I mentioned several Warcraft stories told before Warcraft 3, you just ignored them.

Why waste time saying Warcraft 1 is a Warhammer knock off when games have been ripping off games for years now? Elder Scrolls Arena is a knock off of Dungeons And Dragons... is that a bad thing? No...

So why bring this up? Even if it was supposed to be a Warhammer game originally, who cares? It means nothing.
I'm still waiting for a Valkyrie Profile 3, when it happens, please wake me up so i can buy a ps4
3ds Friend Code: 1263-7002-2175

User Info: rawkuss

rawkuss
2 months ago#114
immadbro posted...
rawkuss posted...
immadbro posted...

There's a difference between rewarding elements and skinner boxes.


No, there is not. A Skinner boxes sole purpose is to create new behaviors by reinforcing (or "rewarding") systematic approximations towards a target behavior (aka shaping). The only difference is the individual. Because you find specific games "rewarding" you fail to see the skinner box, whereas you find WoW not "rewarding" and therefore see it as a skinner box. The reality is they're both skinner boxes because they're both about shaping your behavior to do things you wouldn't normally do (playing video games is not a natural behavior) by using reinforcement. Again, this is not up for debate, this is the science of behavior.

User Info: immadbro

immadbro
2 months ago#115
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=166UJe9-P-8

Brilliant video... sums up why World Of Warcraft is so s***
I'm still waiting for a Valkyrie Profile 3, when it happens, please wake me up so i can buy a ps4
3ds Friend Code: 1263-7002-2175

User Info: immadbro

immadbro
2 months ago#116
rawkuss posted...
immadbro posted...
rawkuss posted...
immadbro posted...

There's a difference between rewarding elements and skinner boxes.


No, there is not. A Skinner boxes sole purpose is to create new behaviors by reinforcing (or "rewarding") systematic approximations towards a target behavior (aka shaping). The only difference is the individual. Because you find specific games "rewarding" you fail to see the skinner box, whereas you find WoW not "rewarding" and therefore see it as a skinner box. The reality is they're both skinner boxes because they're both about shaping your behavior to do things you wouldn't normally do (playing video games is not a natural behavior) by using reinforcement. Again, this is not up for debate, this is the science of behavior.

Rewarding elements are an essential component of games but not the be all and end all.

Most games put time and effort into making a truly rewarding experience.

World Of Warcraft on the other hand uses a facade of rewarding elements which really aren't all that rewarding really, they use a system of engagement which involves "glorifying" what would otherwise be trash. This is usually considered systematic engagement, however this is nothing more than A facade in games like WOW because of how the entire game has been designed specifically with the intent of wasting player's time.

Developers are being told to build the entire game around this system for the sole purpose of forcing players to farm more. You didn't answer my previous question, "Why do heroic instances exist?" I'll answer that question since you appear to be too stupid to answer it yourself. Heroic instances are an extra wall of fat players have to drill through in order to get to the gold vein facade that is raiding.

The purpose of this is to keep players playing for more months so that they can pay their subscription fee again, this is what I like to call Psychological engagement in the structure of skinner boxes. This is what WOW is, it is not a game, it's a machine, a machine designed to generate money which baits players into compulsive behavior.

Basically instead of actually putting effort into their game, Activision Blizzard have found a shortcut to success with minimal effort. As much money as possible for as little effort as possible, that's Activision's motto.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vij2tQJNql4

I will also add that pacing is often considered in most games, especially these days. Most games are designed with the intent of trimming out the fat leaving only the meat. This actually requires a lot of effort and skill to do, something Activision Blizzard don't want to do so rather than making a nice lean game, they make a massive fatty one. That's what WOW is, it's a giant lump of lard. Most live services are. So stop playing them and play the meat already guys geeze... every second you play wow is a second you could be spending on a game that is designed with your best interests in mind, like Warcraft 3.

Do you know how massive the transition of pacing between each Warcraft game was? Warcraft 1 didn't have half the hotkey options Warcraft 3 had. Warcraft 3 allowed you to select unit groups by left click and dragging. In Warcraft 1 you had to hold shift to do that. In Warcraft 3 however, shift is used to hotkey units into groups for more efficient play. More efficiency for the player = better pacing. If WOW had good pacing, its entire combat system would be automated because all you're doing to pressing the same keys over and over again every single fight for the maximum DPS. In fact that's exactly what Runescape does with its revolution combat system, it autmatically plays for you.
I'm still waiting for a Valkyrie Profile 3, when it happens, please wake me up so i can buy a ps4
3ds Friend Code: 1263-7002-2175

User Info: rawkuss

rawkuss
2 months ago#117
And here I thought we were going to have an intelligent conversation. Well, I guess one last thoughtful explanation before I just go back to mocking your hypocrisy and stupidity will be fine.

Rewarding elements are an essential component of games but not the be all and end all.

Most games put time and effort into making a truly rewarding experience.


AKA things that you find reinforcing.

World Of Warcraft on the other hand uses a facade of rewarding elements which really aren't all that rewarding really, they use a system of engagement which involves "glorifying" what would otherwise be trash. This is usually considered systematic engagement, however this is nothing more than A facade in games like WOW because of how the entire game has been designed specifically with the intent of wasting player's time.


AKA things you don't find reinforcing and who's existence prevents your access to the things that you do find reinforcing (a crappy point and click adventure game and WC4) so you decide to throw a childish hissy fit and be angry at it.

Developers are being told to build the entire game around this system for the sole purpose of forcing players to farm more. You didn't answer my previous question, "Why do heroic instances exist?" I'll answer that question since you appear to be too stupid to answer it yourself. Heroic instances are an extra wall of fat players have to drill through in order to get to the gold vein facade that is raiding.


I didn't need to answer it because it's f***en obvious. I've made it very clear that WoW has very clear reinforcement schedules that are obvious to everyone. Just because you don't have the intelligence to perceive the reinforcement schedules in other games and can only do so in games that make it very obvious isn't anybody's problem but your own.

The purpose of this is to keep players playing for more months so that they can pay their subscription fee again, this is what I like to call Psychological engagement in the structure of skinner boxes. This is what WOW is, it is not a game, it's a machine, a machine designed to generate money which baits players into compulsive behavior.


You don't know what a skinner box is so please stop using that term. "Psychological engagement" is your own made up personal bulls*** which just boils down to "these are the things I like so they're smart, these are the things I don't like so it's dumb" and since you keep flaunting your "education" you should know that educated people don't try to make up their own crap in a discussion or debate.

User Info: rawkuss

rawkuss
2 months ago#118
I will also add that pacing is often considered in most games, especially these days. Most games are designed with the intent of trimming out the fat leaving only the meat. This actually requires a lot of effort and skill to do, something Activision Blizzard don't want to do so rather than making a nice lean game, they make a massive fatty one. That's what WOW is, it's a giant lump of lard. Most live services are. So stop playing them and play the meat already guys geeze... every second you play wow is a second you could be spending on a game that is designed with your best interests in mind, like Warcraft 3.


Blah blah blah more dumb ass assumptions based on your own prejudices and desires

Do you know how massive the transition of pacing between each Warcraft game was? Warcraft 1 didn't have half the hotkey options Warcraft 3 had. Warcraft 3 allowed you to select unit groups by left click and dragging. In Warcraft 1 you had to hold shift to do that. In Warcraft 3 however, shift is used to hotkey units into groups for more efficient play. More efficiency for the player = better pacing. If WOW had good pacing, its entire combat system would be automated because all you're doing to pressing the same keys over and over again every single fight for the maximum DPS. In fact that's exactly what Runescape does with its revolution combat system, it autmatically plays for you.


Last time I checked, Megaman has you pushing one button repeatedly. Mario is on button. Both considered great games. Assassin's Creed, MGS, Resident Evil all have wack ass control schemes that require you to press multiple buttons at the same time but are also considered by many as good games. Your bulls*** has no correlation.

Bottom line and my last behavior lecture to you since you're in very clear need of an education and way over your head when you think you can discuss the science of behavior with me (I mean seriously, you're making up bulls*** like "Psychological engagement" and using wikipedia as your resource).

Every game manipulates your behavior to get you to do what the company wants by providing a variety of reinforcement schedules in each game. You have a very clear set of things you find reinforcing in games and you're very upset that Blizzard has made it very clear they don't give two s***s about you by gearing their games towards a different, much larger set of people and their reinforcers. So you're going through an extinction burst because Blizzard is no longer reinforcing your behaviors and throwing a hissy fit, trying to justify what you like as more "intelligent" and belittling the current status quo because you want gain access to your reinforcer again. However, Blizzard don't care about you and neither does anyone else in the video game industry so your whiney ass behaviors won't be reinforced and will eventually become extinct.

In summary: QQ moar and call the whaaaaaaambulance.

User Info: immadbro

immadbro
2 months ago#119
I'm smart enough to realize that WOW has a paid subscription tied to it, as such I'm smart enough to recognize the game's intent to "trap" people in the game for more money, most games don't need to do this because they don't charge a subscription fee.

You state that you press x repeatedly in megaman/mario? Hell no. You have to time your button presses and use the right maneuver based on the environment. WOW on the other hand has you pressing multiple buttons... but in the exact same order every single time because it's the most optimal way to play the game.
I'm still waiting for a Valkyrie Profile 3, when it happens, please wake me up so i can buy a ps4
3ds Friend Code: 1263-7002-2175

User Info: rawkuss

rawkuss
2 months ago#120
But not smart enough to recognize other game's intent to "trap" people in the game to purchase add ons, expansions or sequels. Not smart enough to realize that your behavior is constantly being manipulated by various companies and corporations to continue purchasing their products and spending money. Not smart enough to know that you're not smart enough to even be talking about such matters.

Also, you clearly don't play WoW otherwise you know that maneuvering is a huge part of the game and that many classes have priority rotations and not hard rotations... but whatever, you're "educated".
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