My prediction for future WOW storylines...

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User Info: immadbro

immadbro
2 months ago#101
"Blizzard Announcement — 22 May 1998
Press Desk: Blizzard Cancels Warcraft Adventures

Blizzard wants to take a minute to respond to the Warcraft Adventures petition that is circulating on the Internet. First, we want to express our gratitude to the Warcraft fans that took the time to organize such an effort. We recognize that the cancellation of Warcraft Adventures has disappointed some of our customers, and we appreciate that they have shared their opinions with us.

Secondly, we want let you know that stopping development was not a decision that was taken lightly. It was a hard call to make, but each of us knows that it was the right choice. The cancellation was not a business or marketing decision or even a statement about the adventure genre. The decision centered around the level of value that we want to give our customers. In essence, it was a case of stepping up and really proving to ourselves and gamers that we will not sell out on the quality of our games.

And finally, we hope that Warcraft fans will consider our track record and trust our judgement on ending the project. The cancellation of Warcraft Adventures does not signal the demise of Azeroth. We have every intention of returning to the Warcraft world because there are still chapters to be told. We will keep you informed as we announce future Warcraft plans."

Oh the f***ing irony... Blizzard you are the biggest hypocrites ever... period.

And despite cancelling it, they restrict people from playing it. What a bunch of tossers...

Then they release WOW and Diablo 3, talk about selling out on the quality of their games.
I'm still waiting for a Valkyrie Profile 3, when it happens, please wake me up so i can buy a ps4
3ds Friend Code: 1263-7002-2175

User Info: rawkuss

rawkuss
2 months ago#102
Yes because you’re clearly rational, unbiased and the end all be all of what constitutes what is a quality game. Clearly.

User Info: immadbro

immadbro
2 months ago#103
rawkuss posted...
Yes because you’re clearly rational, unbiased and the end all be all of what constitutes what is a quality game. Clearly.

I'm actually well educated and recognize the flaws in games.
World Of Warcraft is nothing but a skinner box with a Warcraft paint job. In a way it's no differrent from a mobile game, it's all about psychology. Attract simpletons like yourself to keep paying to play by offering a carrot on a stick.

Thats what all MMO's are pretty much. It's just bad game design but idiots like you fall for it.

There you go, you've been educated for free, show some appreciation.
I'm still waiting for a Valkyrie Profile 3, when it happens, please wake me up so i can buy a ps4
3ds Friend Code: 1263-7002-2175
#104
(message deleted)

User Info: rawkuss

rawkuss
2 months ago#105
And since we are having you educate me, and I appreciate it so much, would you mind educating me on a few more things.

Like why point and click adventures games stopped being produced long before WoW was ever conceived due to their declining popularity? Were there any Kings Quest or Police Quest games that even made it pass the DOS era? Or was Leisure Suit Larry's pervy ass the only one that made it to CD-ROM? If WoW was never made, would we really have seen Warcraft Adventures even though NOBODY was making point and click adventure games anymore? Surely that's not wishful thinking on your part because you're so educated.

Or maybe speak on the declining popularity of RTS games and how WC4 wasn't going to be made no matter what? I mean, if WoW was never produced then Blizzard still would've focused on Hearthstone as card games trended or Heroes of the Storm as MOBAs trended or Overwatch as team shooters trended? Clearly Blizzard just follows trends like every other smart company that wants to make money right? That's why they changed Overwatch from an MMO when MMOs were declining to a team shooter as they were increasing in popularity.

User Info: rawkuss

rawkuss
2 months ago#106
rawkuss posted...
Considering that you're talking to a Board Certified Behavior Analysis (very unfortunate for you), allow me to educate you on what Skinner actually did vs. what World of Warcraft (and much of life) actually is.

What Skinner proved is respondent conditioning, meaning that the behaviors presented are innate behaviors (or reflexes for an easier to understand layman term). These behaviors are involuntary and unlearned, meaning that we know to respond to certain stimuli with certain behaviors from the time we're born. An example of this would be a gust of wind (an unconditioned stimulus) that causes us to close our eyes (an unconditioned response). So what respondent conditioning does is take this unlearned pairing and add in another neutral stimulus with the unconditioned stimulus. Repeated pairings of the neutral stimulus with the unconditioned stimulus will eventually cause the neutral stimulus to elicit the same response as the unconditioned stimulus, which will make the previously neutral stimulus a conditioned stimulus and the response we have a conditioned response. So back to our example, if we repeatedly ring a bell right before we blow into your eye, eventually just hearing the bell will cause you to blink regardless if something is blowing into your eye or not.

World of Warcraft, and much of the basic rules of society, is operant conditioning. Meaning that they are learned behaviors based on us operating on the environment and our behaviors being reinforced or punished. We learn new behaviors by whether or not they benefit us. If they do benefit us, then we are reinforced by the outcome of those behaviors and more likely to repeat them again in the future. If they do not benefit us or even harm us, then we are less likely to repeat that behavior again in the future.

Still following me? I hope so, I know it's a lot for an "educated" person like you.

So operant conditioning is making sure that specific behaviors we would like to see increase do so by making sure those behaviors come across some form of reinforcer. In WoW's case, there are multiple layers of various schedules of reinforcement (or the carrot on the stick). Now WoW makes this obvious. Do this dungeon to get this gear, do PvP to get these tokens, etc. etc. etc. but the reality is all aspects of your life is based on reinforcement schedules that we learn through trial and error (Operant Conditioning). Go to work to get money, go to this restaurant to eat food, say this line to get laid, play this video game to gain access to this video (Final Fantasy), play this video game to gain access to this storyline (Baldur's Gate/Bioware), play this game to gain access to attention from your peers (Street Fighter, FPS), etc. etc. etc.

Every video game you play has some form of reinforcement schedule laid into it. The reason why you're even playing a game is to gain access to something from that game. Now the key here is of course everyone has different things they find reinforcing based on their own learned history. So clearly you don't find anything from WoW reinforcing but unfortunately for you, millions of people do and Blizzard has done such an awesome job at mixing in so many different layers of possible reinforcers that WoW still caters to a large audience. But you knew all this because you're "educated" right? And your misuse of the Skinner box example and how it only applies to WoW and not your precious games was just because you thought it would be easier for me to understand right? Because you're clearly so smart.


Sorry, I'm going to deeply apologize, I was so excited that you mentioned Skinner and that I had someone to talk about Behaviorism with that I started switching him and Pavlov around. Regardless, Operant conditioning (aka what the Skinner Box does) is present in all video games because all video games, like much of life, is based on various schedules of reinforcement.

User Info: immadbro

immadbro
2 months ago#107
if we repeatedly ring a bell right before we blow into your eye, eventually just hearing the bell will cause you to blink regardless if something is blowing into your eye or not.

This is literally every single WOW raid in a nutshell. Raid groups keep dying until they do a specific action. The only difference is that there are more simpletons, as such you have to wait till the other simpletons can reach the same level of mastery as you over an obstacle. Once that happends, everyone will blink and the fight is over.

Operant conditioning is a very broad term and doesn't really prove anything. It's more important to look at the system, not skinner's theory, rather his box.

World Of Warcraft doesn't push players through tedious ordeals for research purposes, it does it for money. It's easy to throw layers and layers of filler into a game, especially if you have zero integrity like Activision Blizzard.

Take a look at Destiny 2, IT'S THE SAME f***ING THING. Another game which is nothing more than a thick wall of filler for players to grind through. This acts as a barrier to the carrot on the stick.

This is what I like to call Psychological engagement, why? Because take a look at what players are doing when they are farming for gear. How much complexity is there?

Well I can tell you.

You see, World Of Warcraft has a fairly sizable layer of Inherent Complexity, not too much but enough to act as a barrier, it have very little Emergent complexity however.

In small doses, Inherent complexity is often beneficial to a game as it adds a learning process. Emergent complexity on the other hand is a method of engaging players, something World Of Warcraft fails to do properly.

Once you have learned how to play your class... that's it, you've finished the game. Now have fun doing the same procedure time and time again in every fight, pressing the same buttons in the same order for maximum DPS. This is how WOW works... until you reach instances/raids.

In order to raid, player must beat the game. Once they beat the game, they are introduced to a test of co-ordination/trial and error known as raids.

Raids are basically the test, quests/exploration are just the learning process. The truth is, both of these act as nothing more than filler material. You can have as many rewarding elements as you like but if your game lacks emergent complexity, your game will eventually be beaten and once it is, you cannot truly play the game anymore. Once you have mastered your class in WOW, there is no more game, just layers upon layers of trial and error based tests for players to waste even more time on.

Put simply, raids are an illusionary reward when in actual fact they are just more filler. This is what psychological engagement is, it's all a facade, even the gear is a facade.

Until you do an autopsy on the game, you will probably be led to believe that you are being rewarded when in actual fact, you're just playing into the game's hands. In this case, you're playing into Activision Blizzard's hands because you're giving them money every month.

When you consider the quality of the experience and how horrendous the story and the gameplay is as well as many of the game's contradictions with it being always online. You're left with a very hollow experience. The only reason why many people still play WOW is because they have been manipulated into thinking that raids are fun and that gear is rewarding. The truth is, all gear does is act as a key to unlock the next door to more filler. Unless you care about the gear's looks in which case enjoy your personalization while you can because when the servers shut down, it's gone for good. I've played many games that had better personalization than WOW.

As such, the skinner box and WOW have a lot in common, they're both manipulative. It's not the intent, rather the manipulative systems which they have in common.
I'm still waiting for a Valkyrie Profile 3, when it happens, please wake me up so i can buy a ps4
3ds Friend Code: 1263-7002-2175

User Info: immadbro

immadbro
2 months ago#108
Plus if you look on wikipedia, skinner boxes redirects to operant conditioning chambers, NOT respondent conditioning chambers.

So essentially your lecture was completely pointless.
I'm still waiting for a Valkyrie Profile 3, when it happens, please wake me up so i can buy a ps4
3ds Friend Code: 1263-7002-2175

User Info: immadbro

immadbro
2 months ago#109
Answer this question: Why do Heroic instances exist?
I'm still waiting for a Valkyrie Profile 3, when it happens, please wake me up so i can buy a ps4
3ds Friend Code: 1263-7002-2175

User Info: rawkuss

rawkuss
2 months ago#110
immadbro posted...
Plus if you look on wikipedia, skinner boxes redirects to operant conditioning chambers, NOT respondent conditioning chambers.

So essentially your lecture was completely pointless.


Yes, like I said, deepest apologies because I just got too excited to talk about Behaviorism in regards to something other than how to apply it to children with special needs but I quoted myself because the explanation of what operant conditioning is was important to this discussion. But super embarrasing especially since my former employer is personal friends with Julie Vargas and I've met her on three separate occasions.

But anyways, operant conditioning/being in a skinner box applies to all games. This isn't up for debate, this is fact because everything we do in life is us manipulating the environment for cause and effect (reinforcement and punishment) as well as others manipulating the environment to increase or decrease the probability of our behaviors to meet their desired results. I'm not denying that WoW isn't one big ass skinner box, it just happens to be one of the best skinner boxes based on every measurable metric available.

Let's go all the way back to coin op arcade machines. How did they keep us putting in quarters? Even if we've already beaten a game? Depending on the individual and their own personal reinforcer... it could be bragging rights, it could be to see the ending for a different character or it could also be to get the highest score to put your name in. Either way, every video game was designed to increase the likelihood that we kept feeding the machine quarters.

Now let's move on to the games you like. Maybe Diablo 2? If you only played for the single player aspect of the game (which very few people did) you'd see that Blizzard spaced out cut scenes after each act. These cut scenes were the reinforcer for those seeking the story and by dangling the cut scene in front of the player they kept them playing through the next act. Now if you did online, why? To keep increasing your level? To get better gear? I mean seriously, how many times have you killed Mephisto? How many times for Diablo? Baal? You want to talk about loot pinatas? Let's talk about these guys.

Or we can look at Warcraft 3. You seem to be a story driven guy so let's look at your potential skinner box. Why did you play through each level? To read the dialogue in between levels for the progression of the story? To reach the next cut scene? Would you have kept playing if there was no dialogue, no description between each level? No CGI cut scenes? If it was just build your base, destroy theirs then move on to the next map to repeat, would you have played? No, because your own personal reinforcer wasn't present and since you wouldn't be coming into contact with your reinforcer then your behavior of playing WC3 would decrease. So your carrot on the stick was to find out what happens next. Now if you're an online guy then your possible reinforcer would be increasing your ranking, bragging to your friends, etc. etc. but there is ALWAYS a carrot on a stick.

Life is nothing but a bunch of interconnecting skinner boxes acting against one another. WoW just happens to be very transparent with all their different carrots and their multiple sticks. Whether or not you engage with one skinner boxes reinforcement contingency and not anothers is simply based on whether you find the outcome reinforcing or punishing.

By the way, stop looking crap up on Wikipedia. Buy this book instead: https://www.amazon.com/Applied-Behavior-Analysis-John-Cooper/dp/0131421131/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1519526285&sr=8-1&keywords=applied+behavior+analysis
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