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  3. I'm trying to figure out what in Warcraft 2 counts as canon (WC2 spoilers)

User Info: Tloya

Tloya
11 years ago#1
The problem with Warcraft 2 is that its campaigns weren't an ongoing storyline like in Starcraft or Warcraft 3. Each one takes place in a different alternate reality. In the Orcish campaign for Tides of Darkness the Horde invades Lordaeron, destroys Stratholme, Stromguarde, Hillsbrad, Quel'thalas and eventually conquers the entire continent. In the Alliance campaign the humans destroy all of the Orcish settlements, drive them back into the ruins of the Kingdom of Azeroth and ultimately destroy the Great Portal.

I own the Battle.net edition of WC2, so the instruction manual does include a brief preface for the expansion. Essentially it sounds like what is defined as canon from Tides of Darkness is that the orcs destroyed everything except Lordaeron itself, but the Alliance also pushed them and destroyed the Great Portal, in the end capturing every clan except for the Bleeding Hollow, which later escaped into Draenor when Ner'Zhul reopened the Great Portal as the Dark Portal. Alterac still betrayed the Alliance and was destroyed, Gul'dan and Cho'gall still betrayed the Horde and were killed--but Gul'dan was never captured by the Alliance. It's all very confusing.

Then in Beyond the Dark Portal there is a similar setup with the two campaigns. Depending on which race you play, Ner'zhul or Khadgar capture the Spellbook of Medivh and Skull of Gul'dan (which is either in Deathwing's Lair or the hands of some Bonechewer orc), and either open rifts to new worlds, destroying Draenor, or seal the Dark Portal and close the rift between Azeroth and Draenor forever.

It's looking like the orcish campaign is almost totally canon in this one, since Draenor was destroyed by Ner'zhul trying to open portals and the fel orcs do seem well established in Draenor. There doesn't seem to be much of Khadgar's Expedition left in Outland, and since they apparently failed in their mission it makes me wonder why they get honored with statues in the entrance to Stormwind City. What is also odd is that in Outland the Laughing Skull clan appears to be alive and well, and buddy buddy with the rest of the Fel Horde in spite of their earlier betrayal.

I'm gonna have to reread the intro in the instruction manual for WC3 to help get things straight.
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User Info: ShadowEdgeX

ShadowEdgeX
11 years ago#2
http://www.wowwiki.com/Second_war

Very little human lands were destroyed in the second war. The Horde managed to gain significant footholds in virtually all territory, but didn't sack any of the human capital cities whatsoever, with the exception of Stormwind, which was destroyed in the first war.

Both endings are pretty much canonical in the expansion. Ner'zhul did open the portals, that destroyed Draenor, but the Alliance Expedition managed to "permanently" close the portal, preventing the destruction from spreading to Azeroth, at the cost of their on lives (or so everyone thought until Burning Crusade, when it was revealed that part of Draenor had survived.

Generally speaking, however, if the two campaigns conflict on a point, the Alliance version is the canon one.
A Tauren Mill would be cool. Fresh ground beef for all!
---Supah Furryy

User Info: Endgame

Endgame
11 years ago#3
basically, the Human campaign for ToD is canon, and the Alliance won because of Gul'dan's betrayal

neither of the BtDP endings contradict each other, Ner'zhul flees in both of them, and the Dark Portal is closed

however, there are plenty of retcons, such as how Lothar died, in WC2, he was ganged up on, but it was later retconned to a one on one battle with Orgrim Doomhammer
I may not agree with what you have to say, but I will fight to the death for my right to fight you to the death. -Stephen Colbert

User Info: Tloya

Tloya
11 years ago#4
The one retcon that always drives me nuts is changing how Gul'dan died--it feels like it takes a lot away from both Gul'dan and Doomhammer when they say "oh he opened the tomb and the demons killed him." In WC2 having Gul'dan there in the middle of the map surrounded by daemon servants makes it look like he really is gaining power from the tomb and reinforces the point that he's the most powerful warlock to have ever lived. Doomhammer's forces actually had to bomb their way through the walls of the tomb to get to him and it took a sizeable army to bring Gul'dan and Cho'gall down. Plus having Gul'dan die in the tomb brings up the important question of how the **** did his skull wind up on Draenor.

Speaking of things coming and go from Draenor that shouldn't be: what's up with Grom and the Warsong clan being on Azeroth with Thrall during WC3? Was that point supposed to be glossed over in Lord of the Clans? I had thought all of the Warsong would be trapped in Outland with the rest of the clans of Draenor.
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User Info: Endgame

Endgame
11 years ago#5
according to whatever is canon now, the Warsong Clan got stranded on Azeroth after going there to get the artifacts for Ner'zhul
I may not agree with what you have to say, but I will fight to the death for my right to fight you to the death. -Stephen Colbert

User Info: Major Gamer

Major Gamer
11 years ago#6
or so everyone thought until Burning Crusade, when it was revealed that part of Draenor had survived.

We knew part Draenor survived from WC3.

however, there are plenty of retcons, such as how Lothar died, in WC2, he was ganged up on, but it was later retconned to a one on one battle with Orgrim Doomhammer

I understand the retcon on that one. Lothar had quite possibly the lamest hero death ever in WC2, "Oh, the orcs randomly want to talk peace? It can't possibly be a trap!" *gets gang banged*.

Speaking of things coming and go from Draenor that shouldn't be: what's up with Grom and the Warsong clan being on Azeroth with Thrall during WC3? Was that point supposed to be glossed over in Lord of the Clans? I had thought all of the Warsong would be trapped in Outland with the rest of the clans of Draenor.

The portal was closed while they were still on Azeroth.
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User Info: ShadowEdgeX

ShadowEdgeX
11 years ago#7
During the final battle of Beyond the Dark Portal, Grom and the Warsongs realized that Ner'zhul was insane, and would soon destroy Draenor. They managed to flee through the Dark Portal before Khadagar closed it, and hid out in the wilds of Azeroth. They were pretty much the only group of Orcs (aside from Rend and Maim's "Dark Horde", operating out of Blackrock Spire) that were not put into internment camps by the Alliance.

The skull of Guldan was one of the items Ner'zhul sent Grom to retrieve during the Horde campaign in BtDP. That's how it returned to Draenor. How it managed to get BACK into Azeroth during WC3 is anyone's guess, but it was likely due to Archimonde or Kil'Jaeden, since they seem to be able to enter Outland at will (remember, Kiljaeden was able to threaten Illidian in TFT even after he had closed all the portals).

One thing that is very much debatable, is when exactly Day of the Dragon (the defeat of the Dragonmaw Orcs, and the repowering of the Red, Bronze, Blue, and Green Dragonflights happened. I tend to interpret as happening between ToD and BtDP, but pretty much any spot it time is conflicted by one source or another.
A Tauren Mill would be cool. Fresh ground beef for all!
---Supah Furry

User Info: ShadowEdgeX

ShadowEdgeX
11 years ago#8
We knew part Draenor survived from WC3.

I meant in universe, i.e the Alliance and Horde on Azeroth.
A Tauren Mill would be cool. Fresh ground beef for all!
---Supah Furry

User Info: Ruvan22

Ruvan22
11 years ago#9
"I understand the retcon on that one. Lothar had quite possibly the lamest hero death ever in WC2, "Oh, the orcs randomly want to talk peace? It can't possibly be a trap!" *gets gang banged*."

See, i actually liked the original plotline better. To me it showed Lothar retaining honor in the midst of a terrible war - that he was not consumed by blodlust like other fanatics. If the orcs (at that point) wanted to talk, he was willing to meet with them. Sure, he paid dearly for his sticking by his principles, but I admire his steadfastness in doing so.

User Info: Major Gamer

Major Gamer
11 years ago#10

From: Ruvan22 | #009
"I understand the retcon on that one. Lothar had quite possibly the lamest hero death ever in WC2, "Oh, the orcs randomly want to talk peace? It can't possibly be a trap!" *gets gang banged*."

See, i actually liked the original plotline better. To me it showed Lothar retaining honor in the midst of a terrible war - that he was not consumed by blodlust like other fanatics. If the orcs (at that point) wanted to talk, he was willing to meet with them. Sure, he paid dearly for his sticking by his principles, but I admire his steadfastness in doing so.


Retaining honor isn't the issue. One of the head honchos of the Alliance, walks into an entire Horde base, with about 3 knights. That is an incredibly stupid idea. At the very least meet at a neutral location, not in the middle of their damn base.

Lothar's death in WC2 was quite possibly my first /facepalm moment from shear stupidity.
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