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BareknuckleRoo 8 months ago#11
FreshFeeling posted...
I'd simply never cast HRM4 over saving a CUR4 charge.

Agreed. The only thing you'd use Hrm4 on would be Lich 2, a rogue pack of Ghosts in the Sea Shrine, or possibly a vampire group, but in all those cases using Hrm2 with the Light Axes or Hrm3 is probably fine. You'd want to save Cur4 charges for Chaos ideally. It's a handy emergency measure to have for undead you can't run from I suppose, but not a priority.

Binta posted...
How would a Red Mage / Red Wizard spell priority compare? Level 7 spells are a no-brainer since he only has ICE3 and ARUB to choose from. But with only 3 slots to fill, there's so many choices for spell levels 1-6.

It's not too tough to pick, the Red Wizard has a lot of spells denied which naturally forces you to pick certain spells at given levels. Generally, you want the heals, the multitarget damage spells, Life, and Exit. It's worth noting that there's only three levels where you actually have any really meaningful decisions to make for a Red Wizard (L2, L3, and L6). Spells listed in no particular order:

L1: Cure, Fog, Ruse (save a spell slot for after class change) - Easy pick. Your physical damage will be reliable once you get a Short Sword or better, thus negating the need for Fire or Lit. Lit is the better of the two if you want to drop Fog to have a single target spell that can't miss in an emergency, but very early on you really can get by without Fire or Lit just fine since you have chain armor and a decent physical attack.

L2: ALit, Invs, Mute - Mute is a very helpful option for several encounters (Astos, Kary, packs of Frost Wolves if you're low on Fir2/Fir3). Slow is also handy sometimes but not generally as useful. If you really want Slow, drop Invs or ALit. ALit doesn't help much if at all late game and it's probably the least useful of the three anti-damage element buffs, because enemies that use lightning are quite rare and you'll have Ribbons by the time Blue Dragons are a thing. Enemies that start off with Fir2 or Ice2 are more common. Ice is a decent single target spell if you want a guaranteed attack that's strong and won't miss, but eventually your physical damage will totally obsolete it, and this happens before ALit stops being potentially useful. Note that Tmpr should be taken over Invs in bugfixed versions as Tmpr is very strong when it's working correctly.

L3: Cur2, Lit2, AFir - Easy pick. You can't use half the White Magic here anyways, and Lit2 works well enough on undead to oneshot most of the basic mobs you'll meet, as well as work on a large number of aquatic enemies, the boss in the Marsh Cave, and so on. AFir is helpful early on for a lot of encounters before resistant equipment comes into play. If you have multiple Red Wizards, maybe give one Lit2 and one Fir2? But getting both Lit2 and Fir2 at the expense of losing the option of AFir isn't worth it I think.

L4: Ice2, Fast, AIce - Easy pick. These are the most useful spells at this level by a wide margin.

L5: Cur3, Fir3, Life - Easy pick, save a spell slot for Life after class change. Warp isn't needed if you have Exit at L6 (both of these require class change anyways), Bane eventually comes as an item, Slo2 is useless, and the rest of the White magic can't be learned. Solo runs can drop the Life spell in favor of Bane or Warp I guess.

L6: Lit3, Exit, Inv2 or Fog2 - The toughest level to pick spells for a Red Wizard. Exit is really good; I always take it to have as an emergency escape measure. Warp won't cut it in some very deep dungeons especially if you've used a lot of Cur3 charges. Lit3 is possibly the best general purpose multitarget spell because relatively few enemies resist it (and several nasty enemies are weak to it). Inv2 vs Fog2 is a tough call. Generally Inv2 is better, but if you have multiple Red Wizards you could have one take Inv2 and the other take Fog2, or have one Red Wizard take Exit while the other takes both of the buff spells (just make sure the Red Wizard without Exit always has Life spells or Soft potions ready to use to revive the one who can cast Exit).

L7: Ice, ARub - Literally these are the only two spells a Red Wizard can learn at this level and above.
mitsguy2001 8 months ago#12
Even if SABR worked, it would have been a completely useless spell, since it only increases the attack power of the caster, which would be a Black Wizard, who has the weakest fighting power. So what's the point? I'm guessing SABR was never intended to be a spell to buy, but rather to use via the Power Gauntlet.
BareknuckleRoo 8 months ago#13
You've never used Saber in any of the bugfixed versions, I see.

Saber is unbelievably useful and is a top priority pick for a Black Wizard in any version where it works correctly. Fast + Saber buffs will suddenly turn a Black Wizard in a boss murdering melee machine, and a Black Wizard's natural ability to cast Saber means it frees up the Giant's Gloves for another party member to use, letting two party members skyrocket their attack stat. Black Wizards also aren't all that bad with a Cat Claw either, and are especially good in some of the remakes from Dawn of Souls onward where some unique weapons are available to them. In any bugfixed version, a Black Wizard's Level 7 spell list should be Ice 3, Saber, and 1 of Break or Stun (preferably Break).
(edited 8 months ago)
mitsguy2001 8 months ago#14
FreshFeeling posted...
What are you casting HRM4 against? The only real HRM4 use-cases I can think of are Lich 2 or big vampire groups and I see other options being either much more economical (mage staff, HRM3, just attacking) or better.
ARUB isn't always a top pick for me but I don't think HRM4 is super great. There aren't a lot of strong undead in the late game. I'd simply never cast HRM4 over saving a CUR4 charge.

I didn't necessarily say that HRM4 is important, just that it's more important than than ARUB.
mitsguy2001 8 months ago#15
Binta posted...
How would a Red Mage / Red Wizard spell priority compare? Level 7 spells are a no-brainer since he only has ICE3 and ARUB to choose from. But with only 3 slots to fill, there's so many choices for spell levels 1-6.

It would depend on the role of your Red Mage / Wizard in your party. Is it the only mage? Or is it a substitute for a Black Mage?
mitsguy2001 8 months ago#16
beege_man posted...
Yep, I did the same analysis on SLO2 a few years ago. It was pretty surprising that it doesn't actually have a use other than in being used against you.

I wonder if certain spells were intended to be fairly useless relative to their level, or if it was just poor programming.

Two that especially make no sense: STUN is Level 6, BLND is Level 7. Both are the 300 HP status spells, and STUN is more debilitating than BLND, so why would you ever cast BLND? Also, why would you ever cast RUB at any level, when other instant death spells are in every way better.

The Nintendo Power guide said which spells it recommended or not, and it was not very accurate. It said to skip Ruse, which everybody here seems to think is one of the best spells. It said to buy RUB, but to skip BANE, QAKE, and XXXX, even though BANE at least is in every way better than RUB.
BareknuckleRoo 8 months ago#17
BLND as well as STOP are both weird in that there's way better instadeath spells that work way better in their respective levels. STOP in particular competes with the same element ZAP! spell which straight up has a better effect. Some of the spells are likely there just to flesh out the "every level has 4 spells" rule and aren't meant to be terribly useful in the hands of the player's party.

STUN is at least useful in that it's your first 300 HP status element spell and it's relevant for several major battles. The 300 HP spells are useful because they ignore magic defense, and both STUN as well as XXXX are useful (even if BLND's effect sucks).

As far as RUB goes, it would be more useful if it had at least as much accuracy as BANE or QAKE did. RUB has worse accuracy than BANE or QAKE (and way worse than BRAK) despite being single target, suggesting it's balanced around being an enemy spell rather than one your party will use regularly. XXXX is far more useful for taking advantage of vulnerability to death element because it ignores magic defense. Most things can be hit with either BANE or QAKE if you want to try for the instant kill (Kary, Kraken, Tiamat, various high health normal enemies) but I can't think of a single enemy where RUB is preferable. For RUB to be more useful than BANE or QAKE, the enemy has to resist both poison and earth, but not death, and have low enough MDef to make RUB more useful than a really low probability crapshoot. The enemy also has to resist both fire and lightning or have enough HP to make those spells not worth it, as you'd have those top-tier spells you'd also have if considering BANE or QAKE instead. No enemy fulfills those conditions, and thus RUB is only useful in the hands of enemies, likely there to fill out the spell list.
(edited 8 months ago)
beege_man 8 months ago#18
STUN/BLND/XXXX are ported over straight from D&D (including working based on an HP threshold). The blind status is no big deal in FF1, but it's a very big deal in D&D. So they probably thought they were staying true to their source material, but didn't actually do any balance testing in their own game.
L44 482/482 9/9/9/8/8/8/8/7 Int/MDef: 58/106
HDCEA: 116-111-106/51-53-46/3-4-6.5/83/43(37) Resist: Ice/(Fire)/(Lit)/Death AtkElem: Ice-Fire-Coral
Binta 8 months ago#19
mitsguy2001 posted...
It would depend on the role of your Red Mage / Wizard in your party. Is it the only mage? Or is it a substitute for a Black Mage?
Substitute for Black Mage. Only major loss is NUKE, but I think it's worth having a competitive attacker who can use a bit of both magic.
"If drumsticks are for playing drums, you'd think breadsticks would be for playing bread, wouldn't you?" ~George Carlin
mitsguy2001 8 months ago#20
Binta posted...
Substitute for Black Mage. Only major loss is NUKE, but I think it's worth having a competitive attacker who can use a bit of both magic.

Assuming you still have a White Mage, I'm thinking the recommendations for a Red Mage who substitutes for a Black Mage:

Level 1: You definitely want FIRE and LIT. Since SLEP and LOCK are both useless, maybe go with CURE as your 2nd spell. Or, based on other posts, maybe go without a 3rd spell until the class change, and by Ruse?

Level 2: You want ICE and SLOW. Since DARK and TMPR are both useless, maybe go with INVS or MUTE. You don't need 2 ALIT casters.

Level 3: FIRE2 and LIT2. Another CUR2 caster maybe more important than HOLD.

Level 4: FAST and ICE2 for sure. Nothing really important for your 3rd spell. CONF isn't important, SLP2 is useless, you don't need a second AICE caster, you don't need PURE, and AMUT is useless.

Level 5: FIR3 for sure. And maybe useful to get a second LIFE caster. Hard to say whether you want a second CUR3 caster, or BANE (only instant death spell you can get), or WARP (not as important since you can learn EXIT).

Level 6: LIT3 and EXIT for sure. Either FOG2 or INV2: it seems INV2 IS more useful, but maybe get FOG2 is your White Wizard already has INV2.

Level 7: ICE3 is all you need here. The only other spell you can get is ARUB.

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