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  3. **SPOILERS** Question about end of game?

User Info: Crossfadertyler

Crossfadertyler
11 years ago#1
I mean, where were the four fiends when they sent him to the past?
And how did he become Chaos and send them to the future?
And how did this have anything to do with wild monsters everywhere?

Does this stroy make no sense or am I missing something?
(Not trying to be a critic or troll, just looking looking for answers)Thanks
Playstation 3 - Tyler310
Wii FC - 6467 2736 2041 0133 (Tyler)

User Info: AstralEsper

AstralEsper
11 years ago#2
No, this story is fairly convoluted, and the limited space and lackluster translation of the original NES version certainly don't help matters. I've studied 4 different versions of the text in this game extensively, and I've gotten something of a grip on what I think this convoluted storyline is about. I'll see if I can explain.

First, to help us analyze things, let's examine some ending text from 3 different translations side by side. The Original NES (Left), x_loto's translation of the original Japanese version on the Famicom (Middle - hopefully he doesn't mind me posting it!), and Origins (Right). Dawn of Souls is probably the best overall translation of the game, but it takes a few liberties with the story. Cross referencing x_loto's version (which is a little rough around the edges but substantively sound) and Origins probably provides the closest sense of what the game's makers originally intended (although Origins by itself should work well enough). I'd include DoS as well, but adding a fourth makes the formatting harder and takes more time. This should work fine for our purposes. I'll first post Garland's speech before you fight him as Chaos, and then the ending text. Other text, such as the Circle of Sages and the Sky People Bats, are also instructive, but... I only have so much time!

(A thousand curses on GFaqs for not having <pre> tags!!!!)

GARLAND
Original NES-----------------------x_loto's Japanese Translation-----------------Origins
Remember me, Garland?-----Hahahaha.... So you have remembered.------Well, don’t you look familiar…
Your puny lot thought it---------I am Garland, from two thousand years in
had defeated me. But,----------the future.... In that time, I was killed,-----------Don’t you remember me?
the Four FIENDS sent me-----but the Four Powers sent me through---------It’s Garland.
back 2000 years into------------time and resurrected me in the past!
the past.----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Two thousand years into the
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------future... you killed me.
From here I sent the------------Time has returned.... In order for me to fly
Four FIENDS to the-------------to the past, I sent the Four Chaoses------------But the four great forces sent me
future. The FIENDS will--------to the future. And by the Four Powers-----------back in time, thus resurrecting me
send me back to here,---------again my future self will be sent------------------in the past.
and the Time-Loop will--------through time!
go on.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------The wheel of time revolves eternally
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------I sent the four Fiends of Chaos into
After 2000 years, I will---------After two thousand years, my memory----------the future…
be forgotten, and the----------will be lost. However, I again will return
Time-Loop will close. I--------to the past, thus you will die here and I---------And they shall once again send my
will live forever, and------------will continue to live for eternity!!--------------------future self into the past!
you shall meet doom!!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Two thousand years from now,
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------I will lose all memory of the past.

_________________________________________________________But in that past I will be reborn yet
_________________________________________________________again.

_________________________________________________________Your lives shall end here, and mine
_________________________________________________________shall last forever!

User Info: AstralEsper

AstralEsper
11 years ago#3
Original NES----------x_loto's Japanese Translation----------------Origins
The Time-Loop ------The chain of time was disconnected.... -----The time loop was severed at last.
is now broken! -------The battle that crossed over two
The 2000 year -------thousand years of space and time has------The battle spanning 2000 years came
long battle is ---------come to an end, and peace has arrived.-----to an end and peace prevailed
over. Peace ----------
prevails. ---------------

Control of the---------Once again, the Four Lights shine on--------The light of the four Crystals
four elements,-------this world, and that power revived--------------revived the wind, water, earth
the Earth, the---------the Wind, Water, Earth...and Fire.--------------and fire.
Wind, the Fire,
and the Water,
again belongs
to the earth.

Garland's hatred----Garland's hatred, which returned across-----It all began with a trivial
burned for 2000-----two thousand years' time. That just a----------misunderstanding. But it
years. That------------little (?) was a trivial thing that happened.----was enough to open Garland’s
hatred led the--------------------------------------------------------------------heart to darkness.
Four Powers to
this world.

CHAOS was---------However, that was amplified by the the---------His hatred swelled with the four
created from--------Four Powers that lead this world, and-----------forces of nature, and from it
those Four.----------that produced the Four Chaoses.----------------were born the four Fiends of Chaos.

Evil dominated-----Evil spread throughout the world, and-----------Evil swallowed the world,
the world and-------all was dyed in darkness.---------------------------plunging all into darkness.
covered it in
darkness.

But, it is over--------However, already even that has ended. --------But that is now past – the stuff
now, wrong has----Due to the deeds of the Warriors, all -----------of legends. Thanks to the courage
been set right!!-----was turned towards the right direction.---------and strength of the four warriors,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------all has been set right again.

The LIGHT----------The Four Warriors travel through time----------The warriors will travel in time
WARRIORS are---again and return to the world of their------------once more. The world to which
returning....----------origin. As for the world, we expect the----------they return will be restored to
As they travel-------Four will return to its original form---------------its natural state
in time, the----------that they know.
world returns-----
to normal.---------

Sara and Jane-----There, Sara, Jane, and others are--------------Princess Sarah, Queen Jayne,
wait for them....----waiting, and of course, even----------------------and even Garland will be there,
Of course,-----------Garland, who the Four know well…------------oblivious to what happened in
Garland does------------------------------------------------------------------that time-twisted dimension.
too.

But, when did it-----As for that, when was it.... (?)--------------------But when did it all begin?
ever happen?....

Everything went----One day, all suddenly went to disorder.-------The source of the chaos lay
mad in a day.-------And the cause of that was within the-----------In a strand of time that
The reason lies----two-thousand-year time loop.--------------------looped around to connect
in the 2000 year---------------------------------------------------------------2000 years.
Time-Loop.

User Info: AstralEsper

AstralEsper
11 years ago#4
Original NES----------x_loto's Japanese Translation----------------Origins
The Four chose------The Four were chosen. By the Four-----------Four warriors were chosen-
to become one-------Powers that colored this world in--------------by the very forces that had
force, and fight-------darkness, however, the Four Powers---------plunged the world into darkness.
against the four------that take only that and can look in. (?)--------These four forces were the key to
evil forces that------------------------------------------------------------------banishing the darkness as well.
set darkness
upon the world.

When the Four-------Thus, when they returned, the Four------------And when everything was over…
return, it will-----------who set off to the past to fight did not---------The memory of the four warriors’
be to their--------------expect anyone to remember. (?)---------------journey to the past was destined
past. All---------------------------------------------------------------------------to be lost forever
signs of the
battle with the
Forces will be
erased.

But the legend--------So, everyone knows nothing, but--------------But their deeds will survive
will live on.-------------somewhere in their hearts they will-----------in people’s hearts as legend.
Passed down by-----tell of the battle that made that-----------------The tales will be passed down
the Dwarves, the-----memory as a fanciful legend.-------------------for generations to come
Elves, and the
Dragons....

Passed on by---------The Dwarves, the Elf Village, the---------------Dwarves and elves, dragons,
peoples unsure------Dragons, advanced civilizations that----------people who reach for the stars-
where the story-------were ruined as they raised their----------------all will cherish the tales.
came from.------------hands to the cosmos.

The----------------------Come, the Warriors are returning,--------------The warriors are returning,
LIGHT WARRIORS--crossing over two thousand years'-------------traveling back from the world
return from-------------time very soon.... (?)--------------------------------2000 years past.
their journey
back in time
2000 years.

The memories--------The Warriors will tuck away the memory-----With the memory of their journey
stored deep in---------of their battle in the bottom of their-------------buried deep within their hearts,
their hearts-------------hearts, and will watch over this world.--------they will carry on their lives
will protect the--------------------------------------------------------------------and watch over the world.
world.

Never forget_______They do not want to forget. In order that____Never forget…
the good and______ this world's radiance always face the_____The light of this world
true....____________right direction.______________________ must always be guided in
__________________________________________________the right direction.

Never turn the_____ In order that none replace the powers_____If it goes astray,
Four Powers to____ that misused the Four Lights.___________darkness will come again.
the dark side....

And truth will______Thus the true Four Crystals, always_______A crystal shines within
always live in______being within their hearts...._____________ every heart.
the hearts of
the people.

The Warrior who___Because, really, the one crossing over_____A crystal gleams within your
broke the 2000____two thousand years and battling is you.____heart, too… For you are the
year Time-Loop______________________________________one who fought the battle
is truly a____________________________________________spanning 2000 years.
LIGHT WARRIOR....
That warrior was
YOU!

May the ORBS_____Radiance to all people....________________May the world be blessed with
Always shine!!....______________________________________light for eternity.

User Info: AstralEsper

AstralEsper
11 years ago#5
Alright, let's see if we can pick this apart... I'm including references to other textual material than what I posted, but the above should contain the bulk of the relevant info. Others should feel free to chime in if they think I got something wrong or see something I missed.

Garland kidnaps Princess Sara. We don't know exactly why. DoS explains that it was lust for power and a desire to control Coneria/Cornelia Kingdom, but none of the earlier versions give any such reason, and leave it a mystery (this is one of DoS's liberties with the story). The Light Warriors go and kill Garland at the Temple of Chaos (ToF) - which happens to be the focal point for all 4 elements. It is the elemental forces themselves that send Garland 2000 years back in time.

But it wasn't quite that simple. Garland built up quite a bit of wrath and hatred. What sparked this? We don't know, exactly. It is referred to as a "trivial misunderstanding" (Origins) and a "mere trick of fate" (DoS). I have my theories, but whatever it was, it snowballed into something major and deeply affected Garland, and is what ultimately caused him to betray the kingdom and kidnap Sara.

However, while it may (or who knows, may not) have been a coincedence, Garland fled to to the focal point of the elemental forces. It would seem that his position here is what allowed the forces to focus in and amplify Garland's hatred - which, in turn, created the four Fiends. It is not entirely clear whether the Fiends were born before, after or while Garland was sent to the past and resurrected.

Backing up a moment, it is fairly clearly established that, when the four elements are focused toward a central point, at the Temple of Chaos, they are capable of "breaking the wall of time" and creating a Time Gate. The Black Crystal/ORB is involved in this in some way, either as a catalyst, or as a 5th Crystal to compliment the four Crystals carried by the Light Warriors, representing Time. This is relevant given conceptual source material regarding the four elements of Earth, Fire, Water and Wind, and Time, which is some transcendental or combinative factor of them. The four forces that allowed the Light Warriors to travel back in time to fight Chaos were the same thing that sent Garland back in time in the first place.

However, it does not seem that the four forces simply sent Garland back. It is fairly clear that it is the Four Fiends that send Garland back in time - But, they use, or channel, the four forces in order to accomplish this. Though somewhat cyclical, the order appears to be that first, Garland's hatred is amplified by the four forces, and affects them in such a way that a fiend is born for each, and then, these Fiends send Garland back in time. However, it gets a bit muddled about this order, since the Fiends clearly exist in the past, and are sent by Garland, as Chaos, into the future, where they then send Garland back to the past. There really isn't any getting around the paradox in causality here, but I think that's actually what the creators were getting at - some errant strand of time allows for this crazy paradoxical loop to come into being, and it sustains itself. If I had to guess, I'd say this strand of time was Garland being in the Temple of Chaos and having his hatred coincide with the four forces.

Things get more complicated, though, because Garland being killed at the Temple of Chaos relies on the presence of the Four Light Warriors in order to do it. This becomes problematic because of a rather fascinating story detail that is obscured by the NES translation - the fact that the Light Warriors are not native to the world where the game takes place. Or rather, a better explanation would be that they are from that world's original Timeline, and have been transplanted into the branched off Timeline that was created when the mess with Garland and his hatred and the elements happened.

[continued...]

User Info: AstralEsper

AstralEsper
11 years ago#6
Interestingly, it seems as though the four Light Warriors were "chosen" by the four elements. To this end, it seems as though the four forces, having been induced into creating the fiends, either in an automatic/natural or deliberate reaction, chose four "forces" - or heroes - to oppose the four fiends that had been created and, with Chaos, had covered the world in darkness and "chaos" (to this end, Garland's transformed state is an apt descriptor of the affect he had upon the world and time itself). To this end, the Light Warriors can be seen to have been brought by the elemental forces in order to restore the world and the forces that bind it to order, and perhaps "neutralize" the Fiends. To look at it as a parallel, it is almost as though the Fiends were the "Dark Warriors."

However, the Light Warriors do not retain any of their memores of the original timeline - which helps to explain why there is no backstory or any apparant reason for their being at Cornelia at the start of the game. It isn't clear why this is. Were the elements only able to retrieve their bodies from the original Timeline? In preserving the persons themselves, were the elements unable to save their knowledge of the original timeline - which, effectively never having happened, could not generate those memories? And furthermore, why would the Light Warriors need to come from the original timeline? The explanation is fairly obvious, in a way - in order to break the infinite loop that time was stuck in, an outside force needed to be introduced to the system to change its composition. This could imply that, for whatever reason, the Light Warriors don't exist in the altered timeline.

Why don't they exist? Who knows, could be any number of reasons. However, this becomes somewhat problematic, in that the Light Warriors seem to be necessary in order to set off the Time Loop - they were the ones that killed Garland. One explanation would be that, in the original Timeline, someone else killed Garland, and the Light Warriors merely filled that role in the altered timeline. Perhaps more plausible is that it was indeed the Light Warriors who killed Garland in the original Timeline - but in a different capacity. In the original Timeline, they weren't acting in the capacity of Light Warriors. What role did they fill? We're not sure. However, the ending text states that Sara, Jane, and even Garland "wait for" the Light Warriors in the original timeline. While it is possible this is merely meant that these individuals exist in the original timeline, I think that it implies that they all know each other. A very interesting part of the original Japanese text is the phrase "and even Garland, who the Four know well." It is possible that it merely refers to the encounters they had with him in the original timeline, but I believe that it refers to a pre-existing relationship they had with him (and Sara and Jane) in the original timeline, especially considering that all memories of the altered one will be lost once Chaos is defeated, and the four Light Warriors didn't really get to know Garland that well in the altered timeline.

If the Light Warriors had a prior-existing a relationship to Garland, it helps explain why these particular four youths were chosen by the elements to be the Light Warriors (otherwise, any choice would be seemingly random). It also might help to explain why Princess Sara pines for the Light Warriors, or at least one of them, even if it is merely a reoccurence of something that had originally happened but was undone by the alternate timeline. Actually, for all we know, Sara and the Light Warrior(s) were involved in the "trivial misunderstanding" that set Garland off. Of course, this is all starting to get into conjecture, but suffice it to say, there is evidence that the 6 of them knew each other and had a collective relationship.

[continued...]

User Info: AstralEsper

AstralEsper
11 years ago#7
So, perhaps these four were really the only candidates who could have been the Light Warriors. Regardless, it seems that it is their introduction into the closed system of the Time Loop (snatched from the original Timeline by the four elements, which, as has been demonstrated, can transcend time), or in the alternative, the fact that they alone are protected from the temporal shockwave that changed the world (aside from losing their memories of the original world). So they go on a journey in this time-twisted world, righting the various wrongs that had been committed (to the best extent possible), and eventually reclaim the four forces.

It is unclear whether the Time-Loop accounted for the Light Warriors' restoration of the elements and journey into the past - my guess would be that it hasn't (goes along with the whole "outside of the system" thing). If this is the case, then when Garland meets the Light Warriors in the past, he may recognize that they are not part of the Time Loop, and figures that, by slaying them here, he effectively "wins" and seals the Time Loop up, securing it for eternity. By defeating Chaos, they break the time-loop. Though the exact mechanism isn't explained, my guess would be that defeating Chaos in the past prevents him from sending the Fiends to the future. Without the fiends in the future, Garland can't be sent back to the past. This breaks the time loop, and the paradox, unable to sustain itself, reverts time back to its original state. What happens in the original timeline is likewise unclear. Has something changed through all this that prevents the timeloop from occuring again? Obviously something must have. Perhaps, by breaking the Time-Loop, the Light Warriors removed that strand of time that set it all in motion in the first place. Perhaps, then, Garland never in fact dies. But this is beyond what we can ever truly know.

So, the ultimate end of the story is that it never happened. The purpose and outcome of the entire quest was to prevent itself from ever occuring. Kinda cool, but also really confusing and not all that sensical. No one will remember it. But, as the ending says, some essence of the journey the Light Warrios undertook survives, burried deep within their hearts, where their conscious minds can't access them. And, perhaps strengthened by these memories, they continue to watch over the world, whether in the capacity of Light Warriors officially, or merely with the unknown titles conferred upon them by a forgotten existence. And there is a deeper truth to it all, as their journey will be remembered in the tales of "fantasy" (as DoS puts it) that people tell. The "heart" is clearly an important construct - after all, the true crystals reside within the hearts of the Light Warriors. And you know what? There's a crystal in your heart, too! Know why? Because really, you're the one who went on this crazy adventure, so you are really a Light Warrior! Or something.

To close, here are the last two lines from DoS's ending, which I think are a rather nice illustration of it all:

For you are the wrrior who crossed time

You are the bringer of light...


Aaaand.... I think I just started crying at the sheer beauty of the story. You'll have to forgive me; clearly, in my attempt to understand it all while listening to the ending music on an endless loop, I have descended into madness ;-)

User Info: AstralEsper

AstralEsper
11 years ago#8
Well, that's my take on it all, anyway - although I probably forgot lots of stuff and muddled some explanations. Hope it wasn't too confusing. To answer your more concrete questions about the ending as best I can...

I mean, where were the four fiends when they sent him to the past?
They were in the present, because he sent them there from the past. Probably they were created by his hatred as he traveled to, or after he was in, the past.

And how did he become Chaos and send them to the future?
Garland becoming Chaos is less clear - it probably has something to do with the power of the four elements focusing on him - all that raw power enabled the transformation into a chaotic form, reflecting how he warped these forces. Because he had access to these forces at their focal point, he was able to breach the wall of time and send the fiends forward. Not sure why he staggered them by 200 years one after another, though.

And how did this have anything to do with wild monsters everywhere?
By plunging the world into chaos and darkness, that enabled monsters to run wild from the imbalance of the four forces that governed the world. Turned toward darkness, all kinds of freak **** started to happen. Either that, or monsters existed beforehand, and just happened to get in the way more than they usually would since the Light Warriors had to go running around putting them back together again.

And, that's it for now. If there's anything you'd like me to clarify or elaborate on, let me know and I'll give it a shot. If anyone else has alternate interpretations or wants to discuss this, by all means please chime in! I haven't had a good discussion about this storyline in a loooonnnngggg time (wait a minute.... did we ever have a *good* discussion about the storyline?). There are some things I'm still having some trouble grasping. For example, in Garland's speech, where he says,

"After two thousand years, my memory will be lost" / "Two thousand years from now, I will lose all memory of the past."

Does that mean that Garland lives 2000 years, forgets everything in that time (from senility or whatever), then does the whole Coneria spiel, and goes back again? Or does he mean that his past self who will again come to exist in the future won't know about what ultimately happened to him? The latter makes more sense, but the former is better supported by the text...

Mmm... actually, I think I just helped to solidify some of my own analysin all of these... pages. Mmm... I think I might start writing out some hypothetical, extrapolated storylines explaining the original timeline and expounding on the story for kicks! But I really should get some sleep first....

User Info: x_loto

x_loto
11 years ago#9
My, but aren't we thorough? Seven mighty posts! This may be a new record! ^_^
"Bunny-rabbit slippers, X?"--In2DaBMage
Currently Playing: SaGa Frontier (PSX), Dragon Quest III (J) (NES)--I'm serious this time!

User Info: squirrelnest

squirrelnest
11 years ago#10
while it does contain a lot of oppinion, this should be a sticky
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