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User Info: WhiskeyDisk

WhiskeyDisk
1 month ago#271
ParanoidObsessive posted...
which led to the creation of Bane and Azrael,


Maybe this is a 50/50 nostalgia, and late 90s grimdark me speaking, but I loved Azrael as the Bat and wish he hadn't been punted for the admittedly more deserving and actually-acting-like-batman Dick Grayson.

Then again, I also have soft spots for Gambit and Speedball/Penance so take from that what you will.
The SBA has closed for business, we thank you for your patronage Assassins.
~there's always free cheese in a mousetrap.

User Info: WhiskeyDisk

WhiskeyDisk
1 month ago#272
Zeus posted...
C'mon guys, this isn't like when Riker took over on Beyond Belief: Fact or Fiction! (Although he did do a pretty decent job.)


I can only ever hear the phrase "Believe it, or Not" in Jack Palance's raspy voice in my head...and I've even been to the Ripley museum in Niagara back when he was still the voiceover for the exhibits.
The SBA has closed for business, we thank you for your patronage Assassins.
~there's always free cheese in a mousetrap.

User Info: I_Abibde

I_Abibde
1 month ago#273
WhiskeyDisk posted...
But b****y or not, Teri Hatcher in her prime was a total smokeshow.


*muttering something about her being in Tango & Cash*
-- I Abibde / Samuraiter
Laughing at Game FAQs since 2002.
Zeus posted...
although it seemingly set a terrible precedent considering how many comics nowadays seem to adjust themselves to fit the films, etc.

I don't know if that specifically set the precedent, but I definitely agree that comics have kind of been ruined by spending the last decade and a half or so bending over backward to retcon tons of their own stuff to better conform to the movies.

Sadly, Marvel's gotten a lot worse at doing that than DC has. What's that? The X-Men movies changed their costumes into black leather suits because that looks better on camera than yellow spandex? We'd better change it in the comics as well, no matter how s***ty it looks in print! What's that? Pepper Potts hasn't actually been in Iron Man for almost 40 years, and she hasn't been a love interest for Tony for longer than most comic readers have been alive? f*** it, she's in the film (because it was based on the early 60s storyline), so we'd better s***can her marriage and bring her back to date Tony again.

It does make sense from their perspective, though. Is it better to cater to the 100k readers or so you already have, or to try and pander to get the millions of people who are watching the movies to start buying comics? Unfortunately, apart from an occasional minor bump, it almost never works to increase sales at all, and usually just winds up driving more of the regular readers away, so in the long-term it decreases sales.

That seems to be the trend these days in general - comics will desperately pander to pretty much ANYONE in the hopes of creating new long-term fans, but it almost never works, and they ultimately wind up alienating the fans they already have. Whether it's trying to pander to film audiences, SJWs, hipster teens on Tumblr, or whatever. Those people may b**** about/praise whatever you're doing on the Internet, but none of them are actually going to buy the book.

"Wall of Text'D!" --- oldskoolplayr76
"POwned again." --- blight family
WhiskeyDisk posted...
Maybe this is a 50/50 nostalgia, and late 90s grimdark me speaking, but I loved Azrael as the Bat and wish he hadn't been punted for the admittedly more deserving and actually-acting-like-batman Dick Grayson.

You walked away from that storyline with exactly the wrong reaction, then.

They've mentioned in the past that the entire point of Azbats was that people were complaining that Batman wasn't dark enough, that he should be willing to kill, that he should be more like the Punisher, etc. They basically wanted to show you exactly what a more violent, pro-active, willing-to-kill Batman would be like... and why you didn't really want that at all. Then they followed it up with Nightwing becoming Batman to sort of show you an even lighter, less broody/angsty Batman before reverting back to the status quo.

That being said, I actually like Azrael as a concept, and the idea of Bat-armor of some kind makes too much sense for Batman to never use it (except in stories like The Dark Knight Returns where he NEEDS it). But Azbats was a bit too Punisher/Judge Dredd in flavor for me to really go "Yes, this is exactly what Batman needs to be!"

Ironically, though, I wasn't even really a Batman fan before that. Death of Superman and Knightfall were some of the first DC comics I actually read. I was always a Marvel guy back in the 80s.

(And shortly after both Marvel and DC went Grimderp in the 90s, I started reading Valiant instead. At least until they tanked themselves via internal politics BS and venture capitalism ridiculousness.)



WhiskeyDisk posted...
Then again, I also have soft spots for Gambit and Speedball/Penance so take from that what you will.

You have no excuse for Penance - he wasn't even 90s Grimdark as much as he showed up a decade too late to that party. You should have been an adult by then, and known better.

As for Gambit... bleh. I get why angsty teens of the era latched on to him so hard, but I never liked him. Part of that was almost certainly because I was very much a fan of the 80s X-Men and the tone of the book started to change as we rolled into the 90s (and then it changed even more once they kicked Claremont out), and part of it was probably because his early appearances were basically set up to have him constantly one-up Wolverine as if Marvel was literally saying "DO YOU SEE HOW COOL HE IS? PLEASE LOVE HIM!" But if I'm going to be honest, at least part of it was also that he was constantly flirting with Rogue, who was basically my comic book crush for years at that point.

I just sort of wish that Claremont had gotten to stick around and finish his intended storyline where it turned out that Gambit was secretly working for Mr. Sinister and was a bad guy the whole time. I feel like it would have made his character somewhat more interesting than what we eventually got, and there wouldn't be as many annoying fanboys ranting about how kewl he is all the time to irritate me.

Of course, I just wish Claremont had gotten to stick around in general, because I went through about 15 years of not reading the comics at all because they were terrible without him. They got interesting again for the last half of the 00s or so, but then Marvel went and ruined them again, and they still kind of suck now.

Same for DC, sadly. The later 00s in general were a major renaissance for DC, with the entire Green Lantern side of the universe becoming awesome, Batman really picking up, and even Superman getting some interesting stories. Then they flushed it all down the toilet via the New 52 in an attempt to become 1990s Image and be hip and cool for the kids in the desperate hope that they'd start reading again. Which didn't work.

"Wall of Text'D!" --- oldskoolplayr76
"POwned again." --- blight family

User Info: WhiskeyDisk

WhiskeyDisk
1 month ago#276
I don't think AzBat should have kept the Bat-mantle, but I wish they didn't have him slink off like Quazimodo into obscurity just as fast as he came either.

As for Speedball/Penance I have the excuse of him literally being from and consequently destroying a large portion of my hometown.

Gambit well HEY WHAT'S THAT OVER THERE?
The SBA has closed for business, we thank you for your patronage Assassins.
~there's always free cheese in a mousetrap.
WhiskeyDisk posted...
I don't think AzBat should have kept the Bat-mantle, but I wish they didn't have him slink off like Quazimodo into obscurity just as fast as he came either.

That's fair. But also sort of a consequence of being created mostly for that storyline, and having him go crazy kind of made him a bit unsalvageable after.

That being said, the Azrael costume design was pretty cool. And the character has sort of cropped up (as either the original Jean-Paul Valley version or one of his successors) from time-to-time.

"Wall of Text'D!" --- oldskoolplayr76
"POwned again." --- blight family

User Info: Zeus

Zeus
4 weeks ago#278
WhiskeyDisk posted...
Maybe this is a 50/50 nostalgia, and late 90s grimdark me speaking, but I loved Azrael as the Bat and wish he hadn't been punted for the admittedly more deserving and actually-acting-like-batman Dick Grayson.


Bazrael never made much sense from a logical standpoint given that the mantle was handed off to a guy who Batman had barely just met and who had a troubled history. That said, he had a totally badass costume and he was cool enough to win even Bullock over.

WhiskeyDisk posted...
Then again, I also have soft spots for Gambit and Speedball/Penance so take from that what you will.


Gambit had a really cool design and neat power.

ParanoidObsessive posted...
It does make sense from their perspective, though. Is it better to cater to the 100k readers or so you already have, or to try and pander to get the millions of people who are watching the movies to start buying comics? Unfortunately, apart from an occasional minor bump, it almost never works to increase sales at all, and usually just winds up driving more of the regular readers away, so in the long-term it decreases sales.

That seems to be the trend these days in general - comics will desperately pander to pretty much ANYONE in the hopes of creating new long-term fans, but it almost never works, and they ultimately wind up alienating the fans they already have. Whether it's trying to pander to film audiences, SJWs, hipster teens on Tumblr, or whatever. Those people may b**** about/praise whatever you're doing on the Internet, but none of them are actually going to buy the book.


Yeah, you'd think they'd learn their lesson by now.

ParanoidObsessive posted...
I just sort of wish that Claremont had gotten to stick around and finish his intended storyline where it turned out that Gambit was secretly working for Mr. Sinister and was a bad guy the whole time. I feel like it would have made his character somewhat more interesting than what we eventually got, and there wouldn't be as many annoying fanboys ranting about how kewl he is all the time to irritate me.


That would just make him cooler!
(\/)(\/)|-|
There are precious few at ease / With moral ambiguities / So we act as though they don't exist.
Zeus posted...
Bazrael never made much sense from a logical standpoint given that the mantle was handed off to a guy who Batman had barely just met and who had a troubled history. That said, he had a totally badass costume and he was cool enough to win even Bullock over.

Well, the entire point of that storyline is that Bruce wasn't necessarily thinking straight, because Bane had deliberately run him into the ground before breaking him, so Bruce wasn't really making the best decisions (he didn't really recover until about halfway through Knightquest).

Dick actually called him out on it afterward, though - he basically echoed the same "Why did you make him Batman when I was literally right here, and I'm the closest thing to a son and heir you've ever had?", and Batman's answer was basically that Dick had left, and was forging his own identity and making his own life, and that was more important to Bruce than effectively punishing Dick (in Bruce's eyes) by pulling him back and forcing him to take on Bruce's burdens. Basically, exactly the sort of mindset a father WOULD have towards his son.

His only other alternative at the time was Tim (who was still way too young), whereas Jean-Paul was literally right there, AND had extensive combat training, AND was looking for a chance at redemption.

It's also kind of implied that Jean-Paul probably would have made a worthwhile Batman replacement for a temporary period of time if he didn't still have almost an entire lifetime of assassin brainwashing training hardwired directly into his brain. That's what pushed him over the edge. Jean-Paul himself wasn't necessarily a bad person.

(Not that Bruce learned his lesson from that, considering the next time he met someone who had spent almost their entire life being brainwashed and conditioned to be the perfect assassin by a cult, he made her Batgirl almost immediately.)

"Wall of Text'D!" --- oldskoolplayr76
"POwned again." --- blight family

User Info: WhiskeyDisk

WhiskeyDisk
4 weeks ago#280
ParanoidObsessive posted...
(Not that Bruce learned his lesson from that, considering the next time he met someone who had spent almost their entire life being brainwashed and conditioned to be the perfect assassin by a cult, he made her Batgirl almost immediately.)


To be fair, Bats has always walked an impossible tightrope between sanity and insanity and the standard he holds himself to is sort of absurd to expect anyone else to hold themselves to if they take up the Mantle.

There's a good reason the JLA built the life force sucking penalty into the Hellbat armor, and the Lantern corps would be fools to give Bruce a ring despite his intentions.
The SBA has closed for business, we thank you for your patronage Assassins.
~there's always free cheese in a mousetrap.
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