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User Info: shadowsword87

shadowsword87
4 weeks ago#411
https://investor.hasbro.com/news-releases/news-release-details/hasbro-reports-first-quarter-2018-financial-results

Whoo, DnD is actually making money for once.
ImmortalityV, "I would like to kiss Icoyar to be honest in a non gay way though"

User Info: Zeus

Zeus
4 weeks ago#412
shadowsword87 posted...
https://investor.hasbro.com/news-releases/news-release-details/hasbro-reports-first-quarter-2018-financial-results

Whoo, DnD is actually making money for once.


And apparently BeyBlades are still a thing? Oo I thought that fad came and went ages ago. Apparently Stretch Armstrong (back from the dead) is doing well for itself.
(\/)(\/)|-|
There are precious few at ease / With moral ambiguities / So we act as though they don't exist.
shadowsword87 posted...
Whoo, DnD is actually making money for once.

Has it not been?

I don't really follow the financials for RPGs, but just judging from peripheral awareness, I'd say it seems like they've been doing quite well since 2000 or so (with expected ups and downs at various points).

The only point where I've ever really seen the system as a whole to actually be in trouble was in the late 80s/early 90s, which is what led to the WotC/Hasbro buyout in the first place. And that was more a case of TSR being woefully inept and failing to adapt to a changing marketplace.

Granted, the RPG industry as a whole seems tanked pretty hard for years now, but D&D seems to be about the only brand that has come out of it better off than before.

"Wall of Text'D!" --- oldskoolplayr76
"POwned again." --- blight family

User Info: shadowsword87

shadowsword87
4 weeks ago#414
I don't know if it's ever been directly failing, but when WoW hit in 04 it really did a number. That's why they made 4e in 08, hell, there are advertisements calling it out: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/basementelf_1280.jpg

The thing is that the RPG industry has been on the up and up since Actual Plays became a real big deal a year or so ago. Critical Role, Acquisitions Inc, The Adventure Zone, and all of the smaller games adds up and you see a lot of new people directly talking about games similar to them.

People just didn't really know what DnD/RPGs actually are are now hearing about them and... they're good and really fun with fun people.

Board games are going through a similar scale, just larger.
ImmortalityV, "I would like to kiss Icoyar to be honest in a non gay way though"
(edited 4 weeks ago)
shadowsword87 posted...
I don't know if it's ever been directly failing, but when WoW hit in 04 it really did a number. That's why they made 4e in 08

I know, that's why I said "with expected ups and downs at various points".

For any given line (not just D&D), there's an expected slow-down point after the current edition has been out for a while, where most of the people who ARE going to buy the core rules have already bought the core rules, and successive releases are either incredibly niche (and thus will draw lower buy rates), or wind up screwing over the entire existing system to justify themselves (3.5 and 4.5 are good examples). This was a large part of what eventually led White Wolf to shoot themselves in the foot with the nWoD.

D&D 3e was basically screwed over in multiple ways - when it first came out the WoD was still going strong (and was the #1 system in the marketplace at the time, having passed D&D during TSR's slow dying end), and it had to overcome some of the negativity associated with TSR as a whole (and try to reintegrate and cater to both Basic D&D and AD&D audiences). As it continued its sales were weakened for anything other than the core rules because of the OGL and d20 free-for-all of books from other companies, and it ultimately hit its inherent weak-point (ie, the end of the sales cycle, when most of the important books are already out and most of the audience has already bought them) at the same time that console gaming sales and MMOs (aka, WoW) were peaking.

That being said, I'm not sure even the weakest sales period of 3e was as bad as the line under TSR towards the end. And 4e - for as much as some people hated it - DID generally accomplish its goal, bringing younger people who hadn't necessarily played P&P RPGs before but who WERE familiar with video game RPGs into the mix. A large part of the success of 5e (and, in turn, the reason WHY we're seeing so many online play-alongs and RP series) is rooted in the players that 4e brought into the fold in the first place.

Hence my impression that D&D as a whole, looked at in a big picture view and not just in minute chunks of time, hasn't really been "in trouble" since 2000 or so, and has consistently made WotC money. Maybe not as much as Magic does, but even that has its down periods and s***ty cycles *cough*Homelands*cough*.

"Wall of Text'D!" --- oldskoolplayr76
"POwned again." --- blight family

User Info: I_Abibde

I_Abibde
4 weeks ago#416
Did 4th Edition fulfill that role, though? Most of my current players are young enough to have started at that point, but they all either 1) started at 3.5, never mind that it had already technically run its course by then, or 2) started at Pathfinder. (There are also players in the group who have not played at all prior to 5th Edition, but those tend to be munchkins who mostly blow huge sums on Magic: The Gathering.) The failures of 4th Edition led directly to the rise of not only PF, but also all the different games of the OSR, as has been discussed here before. It also says a great deal to me that 4th Edition had such a short life span compared to the other versions of Dungeons & Dragons.
-- I Abibde / Samuraiter
Laughing at Game FAQs since 2002.
I_Abibde posted...
Did 4th Edition fulfill that role, though?

I'd argue that it did, because just anecdotally/observationally, it seems like it brought a lot of players into the hobby who weren't roleplayers beforehand, and probably never would have come in at all if the game still ran the way 3e/Pathfinder did.

As much as older D&D players really don't like to admit it, the older rules sets tended to act as a huge barrier to more casual players. They'd take one look at the size of the rulebooks or all of the complicated references on a blank character sheet, and their eyes would glaze over. Yes, it makes sense and is easier to handle once you LEARN it, but if it's too discouraging from the start, newer players are never going to learn in the first place. Especially if there are other entertainment media constantly angling for your time.

I think 4e definitely brought new people in by virtue of being more simplified/more familiar to people already playing video game RPGs with spammable attacks and the like. And I think at least a fair number of those new people went on to be evangelists for the new edition once it came out.

Basically, I think that's a huge part of why 5e succeeded in catching on mainstream more than the game has managed in almost 40 years - because it managed to both retain the casuals they'd drawn in via 4e while also winning back older players who'd previously switched to Pathfinder but who preferred 5e's greater simplicity.



I_Abibde posted...
There are also players in the group who have not played at all prior to 5th Edition, but those tend to be munchkins who mostly blow huge sums on Magic: The Gathering.

Based on various online games, it seems like the vast majority of people currently playing 5e never played anything before 5e.

Nearly every online group seems to be based around a DM and maybe an extra player or two who have been playing since long before 3e (I don't think I've seen a single veteran say they started with 3e or Pathfinder - most of them have been playing since at least 2e), with the rest of the group filled out with players who've never RPed before their current game. And then most of those groups seem to get constant messages from people online who say "I've never RPed before, but watching you made me want to do it, so I started playing 5e."

I'm almost tempted to say that, if it were possible to poll every active or semiactive RPer in the entire world, you might actually find that more than half the people playing these days are people who started exclusively with 5e, outnumbering people who started playing in earlier systems. Certainly a large percentage of the more tech-savvy parts of the audience.

"Wall of Text'D!" --- oldskoolplayr76
"POwned again." --- blight family
I_Abibde posted...
Most of my current players are young enough to have started at that point, but they all either 1) started at 3.5, never mind that it had already technically run its course by then, or 2) started at Pathfinder.

Just judging based on most of the online gaming groups I've seen, it sometimes seems like almost no one ever really started with 3e. All the old school grognards seem to be people who started with 2e or earlier, while most of the new players all seem to have started with 5e (with at least a few who picked up 4e from the Penny Arcade games).

The only group that seems to have started with Pathfinder were the Critical Role guys, but that group also had three older RPers who had started in 2e (or even 1e AD&D), and they mostly picked it because Matt Mercer was already running 3e games and was more familiar with them. And they switched to 5e almost immediately once the opportunity for them to do so was available.



I_Abibde posted...
The failures of 4th Edition led directly to the rise of not only PF

I'd argue that the success or failure of 4e had absolutely nothing to do with PF, period.

What led to PF was the fact that 4e was so radically different from earlier editions, it tended to split off people who weren't willing to change, or who didn't like the new direction of the game (to mimic MMORPG design). Those people were driven off long before 4e had a chance to succeed or fail. And their leaving didn't necessarily offset newer players brought in by the new design and more visually mapped version of the game.

But overall, I'd say that 4e almost certainly made enough money for the company, and brought in enough newer players, that they don't necessarily see it as a failure at all (even if they did want to redesign 5e to try and recapture a lot of the players who had defected to PF).

Basically, I don't think most of the people who complain about 4e would have complained at all if it was run as a separate alternative version of D&D run parallel to the main line (in the same way Basic D&D and AD&D were separate and differed in some radical ways). Had WotC released a 3.75/Pathfinder edition of their own rather than willingly giving up on that portion of the audience, those players would have had less reason to care whether or not 4e was different, and 4e still could have brought in new players.

With 5e, I think there was a definite desire to sort of toe the line between the two versions (in exactly the same way 3e originally tried to pick up for AD&D while not completely forsaking Basic). It's not condemning one or the other as a failure, as much as it is trying to pick out the parts of each that are successful, to make an even more successful (and profitable) version.



I_Abibde posted...
It also says a great deal to me that 4th Edition had such a short life span compared to the other versions of Dungeons & Dragons.

4e was officially supported for about 7 years. That arguably makes it one of the longer runs, when you consider 3e was only supported for about 7 years (but was also basically divided into 3e and 3.5), while the original version of the game only really existed for 3 years before they rereleased it as two separate lines (Basic and Advanced).

Meanwhile, Basic D&D wound up having like 5 different versions over 20 years, while AD&D had 2 different revisions over the same span.

AD&D 2nd is probably the edition of the line that lasted the longest, and that only lasted for about 11 years (but almost entirely unsupported for the last few years - realistically, it was probably more like 7-8 years active).

"Wall of Text'D!" --- oldskoolplayr76
"POwned again." --- blight family

User Info: The Wave Master

The Wave Master
4 weeks ago#419
I'm proud of Big Cass. He actually cut a decent promo on Smackdown Tuesday.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZS1ssZv7cHM
We are who we choose to be.

User Info: CyborgSage00x0

CyborgSage00x0
4 weeks ago#420
So, I think I'm seeing IW Saturday, and the NFL Draft is on.
PotD's resident Film Expert.
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