• Topic Archived
You're browsing the GameFAQs Message Boards as a guest. Sign Up for free (or Log In if you already have an account) to be able to post messages, change how messages are displayed, and view media in posts.

User Info: McmadnessV3

McmadnessV3
4 weeks ago#141
Rethalwolf posted...
Do I even need to go into how stupid you sound? Obviously it's not the handholding I like (which, btw, is not even as bad as Skyward Sword, so you're wrong there). "Railroaded" sounds like a linear story to me - unless you're talking about the limitations placed on exploration until you unlock various abilities (which make it more like a Metroidvania, which is better for exploration in games) - which I've already said is better than the non-story style of BotW.

Furthermore, BotW appeals to the LCD because it capitalizes on the open world obsession that the modern idiot has. For some reason, people seem to think that being able to go wherever they want whenever they want makes a game good. BotW is a perfect example of this, wherein the ability to go anywhere is literally its only "redeeming" quality (and that's not even a good thing, but like I said, the idiots of today believe it is). Hell, the game itself has the self awareness to know that it's a polished turd at best - just look at the prize for exploring everywhere.

Twilight Princess has
* an actual story
* good dungeons
* tool unlocks
* progressive exploration
* no s***ty breakable weapon system
* diverse enemies and bosses
* diverse combat (particularly in requirements from one enemy to the next)(but weak AI, I'll admit, due to coming out so long ago)
* no s***ty physics-based puzzles
Aka, better than BotW on every count except size and enemy AI (which are imposed by technological limitations of the time).
BotW is garbage.

I am actually referring to the constant hand holding the game has for the first several hours that treat the player like an idiot. Something BOTW doesn't have. And yet it's somehow the one appealing to idiots.

*So does BOTW. Try again please
*Many of which were largely derivative of past games there were a few good ones but most were very been there done that
*BOTW offers various powers, abilities and gear as reward for exploration that make you more capable at dealing with the challenges presented, many of which can be used in a large variety of ways, a lot of TP's items were fairly limited in usage beyond their dungeon.
*Sure, doesn't make it inherently better or worse, just a different way of doing things.
*The only part in this area where BOTW lacks is boss variety, enemies however there is plenty of variety.
*BOTW's combat isn't exactly super indepth but don't try to tell me TP is any better, it's mostly just standing, circling around enemies and waiting to parry, combat has never been Zelda's best aspect
*Better than the wolf
Thank you for taking the time to read this sig.
This sig loves you.

User Info: A_Field_Lover

A_Field_Lover
4 weeks ago#142
Hirokey123 posted...
They already did improve immensely though when it comes to exploration, overworld, and field abilities aspects.

SS and CS's worlds are infinitely more engaging to actually explore with so many little secrets to uncover it's unlikely you've found everything on a first or even second playthrough. The use of depth, elevation, the physical set pieces of the environment, etc... everything is just miles above where we were with TTYD. Which is why level design is brought up constantly as one of CS's strong points and one of the more consistent things voted as being done better than TTYD. Likewise same for ease of progression you can pretty much jump to any place you wish and jump out of any place you wish with great ease so when there is backtracking it's very quick.

Furthermore by trimming down the amount of field actions that then allowed for a greater emphasis on those actions. Mario can hammer in four directions, grab and pull things, jump, use Things, paint, and cut out and they use these abilities to pretty much their maximum potential. No ability feels like it's underused and they get pretty creative in the ways they can make use of these abilities to create puzzles from fixing a train to being a chef. Which also makes for a more seamless gameplay experience because instead of pausing the gameplay to swap between a bunch of tools you already have everything readily available to use. Likewise when CS did add a unique gameplay mechanic for a specific level like a temporary new power to Huey or a temporary ally they did a very good job of building the level design around it, and in those cases the gameplay was still very smooth to the mechanics feeling practically second nature.

It says a lot that CS in it's single level with the SPM Flip mechanic managed to use it an infinitely more engaging way than SPM did, thanks in part to the fantastic level design and the ways they got really creative in how the view point shift worked. Using swapping between 2D and a vertical 2.5D then taking some fairly basic but classic levels from SMB3 and breathing new life into them. Basically puts Bitlands to shame and shows that the flip mechanic had a lot of potential never ever remotely utilized.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyfUYtFwl7A

All things considered CS is basically the perfection of what the first two game formulas built up when talking about exploration. It takes 64's level design, mixes in TTYD's clear point A to B, adds in a dash of SPM's more self contained fragmentation to make travel between world segments easier, and drops what doesn't work to create a unification of the elements that did. It takes TTYD's ingraining of primary field ability into mario, makes some less context sensitive, and then makes a much bigger and more varied usage of all of them. It takes the field partner system to "a" logical conclusion where the first two games mixed both characters and tools to create a cast of living tools, SPM introduced the idea of a singular main partner with several abilities while reducing the rest of the partners to literal living tools, and then SS and CS fused it all together. Having a singular main partner who grants a large variety of field abilities and is also a literal living tool.

It will be interesting to see how TOK evolves it from here.

We can see Olivia is following suit with the central partner idea granting a host of abilities though it adds a new progression element where she must earn these abilities. Which is a first since the games have never had our partners have to earn new field abilities before, it's usually they just have everything they can do on the field, progression limited purely to battle things. Depending on how linear the game is vs how necessary her transformation abilities are will be a big determiner in terms of flow.

Likewise Mario is continuing the trend of having the primary field abilities built into him and utilized in a variety of ways. However it seems a fair bit more context sensitive when it comes to the thousand fold arms but the context of what it can do changes. So there will be a large emphasis on each individual environment set piece, you can think of it like Kirby and his hyper suction. Thousand fold arms is just 1 abilities much like the hypernova suction in TD is one ability but you had a large variety of puzzles based the implementation of that one ability. If this will be executed well or feel too much like glorified/arbitrary lock and key design remains to be seen.

The level design seems to be taking a pretty sharp turn as we greet the return of a cast of field characters, however it looks like they are temporary so each segment they are used in will most likely be heavily built around them. Because they will know exactly what the player has at their disposal they will be able to tailor the puzzles around their abilities, and with them being temporary they won't need to hamfist the abilities of the others. Each segment will be able to really highlight that character which is a benefit of linear game design in elements such as these. However the world design itself is larger and more open we haven't see anything remotely the scope of places like the desert or ocean since 64 and even 64's handling of this was limited and fragmented compared to how seamless this seems to be. It will be interesting to see how they handle the scope of the world. It's easy to mess up and make a big world that feels too sparse in bad way.
Yet Sticker Star was trash in other areas that the earlier Paper Mario games succeeded at. it makes no objective sense to not take the base from TTYD and just actively improve upon what it failed at.
Nerd girl who's passionate, Bandana Dee for Smash!
#1 Assist Trophy, Galeem, Lonato & FE Echoes Lover! F to Geno, BWD + Isaac. Hero's in!

User Info: Tristou23

Tristou23
4 weeks ago#143
Hirokey123 posted...
They already did improve immensely though when it comes to exploration, overworld, and field abilities aspects.

SS and CS's worlds are infinitely more engaging to actually explore with so many little secrets to uncover it's unlikely you've found everything on a first or even second playthrough. The use of depth, elevation, the physical set pieces of the environment, etc... everything is just miles above where we were with TTYD. Which is why level design is brought up constantly as one of CS's strong points and one of the more consistent things voted as being done better than TTYD. Likewise same for ease of progression you can pretty much jump to any place you wish and jump out of any place you wish with great ease so when there is backtracking it's very quick.

Furthermore by trimming down the amount of field actions that then allowed for a greater emphasis on those actions. Mario can hammer in four directions, grab and pull things, jump, use Things, paint, and cut out and they use these abilities to pretty much their maximum potential. No ability feels like it's underused and they get pretty creative in the ways they can make use of these abilities to create puzzles from fixing a train to being a chef. Which also makes for a more seamless gameplay experience because instead of pausing the gameplay to swap between a bunch of tools you already have everything readily available to use. Likewise when CS did add a unique gameplay mechanic for a specific level like a temporary new power to Huey or a temporary ally they did a very good job of building the level design around it, and in those cases the gameplay was still very smooth to the mechanics feeling practically second nature.

It says a lot that CS in it's single level with the SPM Flip mechanic managed to use it an infinitely more engaging way than SPM did, thanks in part to the fantastic level design and the ways they got really creative in how the view point shift worked. Using swapping between 2D and a vertical 2.5D then taking some fairly basic but classic levels from SMB3 and breathing new life into them. Basically puts Bitlands to shame and shows that the flip mechanic had a lot of potential never ever remotely utilized.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyfUYtFwl7A

All things considered CS is basically the perfection of what the first two game formulas built up when talking about exploration. It takes 64's level design, mixes in TTYD's clear point A to B, adds in a dash of SPM's more self contained fragmentation to make travel between world segments easier, and drops what doesn't work to create a unification of the elements that did. It takes TTYD's ingraining of primary field ability into mario, makes some less context sensitive, and then makes a much bigger and more varied usage of all of them. It takes the field partner system to "a" logical conclusion where the first two games mixed both characters and tools to create a cast of living tools, SPM introduced the idea of a singular main partner with several abilities while reducing the rest of the partners to literal living tools, and then SS and CS fused it all together. Having a singular main partner who grants a large variety of field abilities and is also a literal living tool.

It will be interesting to see how TOK evolves it from here.

We can see Olivia is following suit with the central partner idea granting a host of abilities though it adds a new progression element where she must earn these abilities. Which is a first since the games have never had our partners have to earn new field abilities before, it's usually they just have everything they can do on the field, progression limited purely to battle things. Depending on how linear the game is vs how necessary her transformation abilities are will be a big determiner in terms of flow.

Likewise Mario is continuing the trend of having the primary field abilities built into him and utilized in a variety of ways. However it seems a fair bit more context sensitive when it comes to the thousand fold arms but the context of what it can do changes. So there will be a large emphasis on each individual environment set piece, you can think of it like Kirby and his hyper suction. Thousand fold arms is just 1 abilities much like the hypernova suction in TD is one ability but you had a large variety of puzzles based the implementation of that one ability. If this will be executed well or feel too much like glorified/arbitrary lock and key design remains to be seen.

The level design seems to be taking a pretty sharp turn as we greet the return of a cast of field characters, however it looks like they are temporary so each segment they are used in will most likely be heavily built around them. Because they will know exactly what the player has at their disposal they will be able to tailor the puzzles around their abilities, and with them being temporary they won't need to hamfist the abilities of the others. Each segment will be able to really highlight that character which is a benefit of linear game design in elements such as these. However the world design itself is larger and more open we haven't see anything remotely the scope of places like the desert or ocean since 64 and even 64's handling of this was limited and fragmented compared to how seamless this seems to be. It will be interesting to see how they handle the scope of the world. It's easy to mess up and make a big world that feels too sparse in bad way.
It's funny that you only talk about the gameplay. For me the most important thing in a Paper Mario game it's the world building (character, story, town, dungeon, etc).

User Info: MrSirDrProf_sma

MrSirDrProf_sma
4 weeks ago#144
Rethalwolf posted...
Except they're doing away with chapters, which sounds like they're doing away with order, or else why get rid of the classic storytelling method? It sounds like BotW all over again
Or it just means that the events are all separate experiences that tie in together late in the game once all streamers are destroyed, or maybe dialogue changes between you and the enemies based on who has been taken out, to increase replayability. I think we know too little to be all doom and gloom. >_>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iZ0WuNvHr8 Humans piloting mechs... WHAT COULD POSSIBLY GO WRONG?! *20 years later* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPozvc75PoE

User Info: Hirokey123

Hirokey123
4 weeks ago#145
Tristou23 posted...
It's funny that you only talk about the gameplay. For me the most important thing in a Paper Mario game it's the world building (character, story, town, dungeon, etc).
I don’t really care what is important to you, that has nothing to do with topic at hand. My post on exploration in TTYD and its issues were quoted with a statement saying they should have focused on improving that rather than abandoning it. My post in response, the one you quoted, is me explaining they did just that. They didn’t abandon it they took everything that was before it and then joined it together dropping what worked and what didn’t. Which is why the level design and the exploration is so strong.

This entire discussion hell this entire topic is specifically about gameplay and game structure. The argument of how much you like the other elements such it’s story is a completely unrelated tangent.
I've got a quote that embodies you perfectly, but it's seventy-three posts long, has a few massive flowcharts, and lots of Xion-KMA to Me

User Info: McmadnessV3

McmadnessV3
4 weeks ago#146
If the most important part of PM to you is characters, story and world building, you are playing the wrong series.
Thank you for taking the time to read this sig.
This sig loves you.
  • Topic Archived

GameFAQs Q&A