This is a split board - You can return to the Split List for other boards.

You're browsing the GameFAQs Message Boards as a guest. Sign Up for free (or Log In if you already have an account) to be able to post messages, change how messages are displayed, and view media in posts.
  1. Boards
  2. Religion
  3. To anyone who knows/studies Greek, has a mainstream translation ever...

User Info: YHWH_Saves

YHWH_Saves
1 month ago#1
...bothered you?

Or, better worded, have you ever disagreed with a translation? An interpretation?

=============

I had an example, but I lost it, and so I guess I'll just posit the question for now.
"Man will not live off of bread alone, but by every word proceeding through the mouth of God." "You are not able to serve God and wealth.".

User Info: YHWH_Saves

YHWH_Saves
1 month ago#2
I just found another.

Matthew 24

We often take this to be the "end times" sermon, where Jesus describes the unfolding of events that will occur immediately before the "end of the world." I myself have misused some of these texts to depict what was happening with Isis in the ME, etc.

After describing the turning of brother against brother, and detailing how the "one who endures to the end will be saved," Jesus famously proclaims the following:

"And this gospel will be proclaimed in all the earth, for a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come."

I have bolded the 'error.' The Greek word here, οικουμενη (oi-koo-men-ee), is not the word for "earth" (γης), or even the word for "world" (κοσμος). It is the word that is used exclusively to depict the stretch of land inhabited by the "nations"/Gentiles. Jesus is talking about the madness (literal hell on earth) that will be enacted in the destruction of Jerusalem by Rome.

Keep in mind that it is this same word that is used in the corresponding Revelation "end times" passages.

===========

In my view, without the specific reference to the ancient Mesopotamia/Mediterranean geographic location, these verses are field play for end times preaching. When I set out to learn Greek, I began to defend the English translations. "Ah, you don't need to know Greek!," I'd tell my friends and family. And I still believe that eschaetology only affects salvation in a very narrow group of believers; many of us still function just fine as decent human beings apart from our views on end times.

However, this is, in my opinion, a significant mistranslation (or perhaps, misinterpretation) that leads to very different schools of belief. I mean, some people are still waiting for the abomination of desolation to appear in the Third Temple (after, of course, the land is taken back from the Muslims), because of their misapplication of this warning to our times.
"Man will not live off of bread alone, but by every word proceeding through the mouth of God." "You are not able to serve God and wealth.".
(edited 1 month ago)

User Info: YHWH_Saves

YHWH_Saves
1 month ago#3
^^^Also, this helps clear up lots of the accusations of contradiction by both flat-earthers and unbelievers, with regards to how:

1) Satan supposedly takes Jesus up to a high mountain, from which he can see the entire "world" (the word here is οικουμενη)

2) the Scripture uses phrases like "to the ends of the earth." (οικουμενη)
"Man will not live off of bread alone, but by every word proceeding through the mouth of God." "You are not able to serve God and wealth.".

User Info: zinformant

zinformant
1 month ago#4
Try blindly translating John 1:1 for something interesting. Another readily available example is 'the evil one'. This does a better job explaining than I could:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_6:13#Commentary_on_Evil
Is it naive to dream of a world without war?

User Info: YHWH_Saves

YHWH_Saves
1 month ago#5
zinformant posted...
Try blindly translating John 1:1 for something interesting. Another readily available example is 'the evil one'. This does a better job explaining than I could:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_6:13#Commentary_on_Evil

Good succinct examples.

I think that John is invoking Genesis 1, and/or possibly writing to an Ephesian school of those who understand what λογος is, but that's hardly common knowledge, and isn't obvious from the simple reading. (what is your view?)

==========

As for "the evil one," this baffled me as well. Now, I chalk it up to being one of the following:

1) Personification of evil
2) Poor grammar (John doesn't seem to be a native Greek speaker, and it shows elsewhere)
3) Similar to what is done with "Life," where a normal word is given a definite article to emphasize it as a category

Interesting read. I suspect that we actually relatively little about the mindset of 1st century Jews, and will probably never really "get" all that is being said.
"Man will not live off of bread alone, but by every word proceeding through the mouth of God." "You are not able to serve God and wealth.".

User Info: the_hedonist

the_hedonist
1 month ago#6
I studied Greek in school about 7 years ago. Unfortunately, I haven’t kept up with it, so I can’t do much with it. The best I can say is that I know how to use a lexicon or BlueLetterBible than the average layperson.

Here’s one I came across recently:

16 Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them.
17 And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted. - Matthew 28:16-17

Now, I can’t find discussion of this translation for free online. Probably some more scholarly sources discuss it. Most accessible online sources seem to focus on the proper translation of ‘distazo’ (should it be ‘doubt’ or ‘hesitation’ or ‘waiver’). That’s an important question, sure, but more crazy to me is that I don’t see the basis for the word ‘some’ in the translation! It is seemingly inserted there and I for one don’t understand the grammatical basis for doing so.

As far as I can tell, a literal translation would read “they worshipped him, but doubted” or “they worshipped him, and doubted.”

This makes a huge difference, in my opinion, of our understanding of this verse! It seems to be an intentional softening on the part of the translators (every translation I can find).
'Tis so sweet to trust in Jesus, just to take him at his word.
Just to rest upon his promise, just to know, "Thus saith the Lord."

User Info: YHWH_Saves

YHWH_Saves
1 month ago#7
the_hedonist posted...

As far as I can tell, a literal translation would read “they worshipped him, but doubted” or “they worshipped him, and doubted.”

This makes a huge difference, in my opinion, of our understanding of this verse! It seems to be an intentional softening on the part of the translators (every translation I can find).

Wow. I'm not the come-all/end-all source for Greek linguistics, but I agree with your translation. It's surprising that all translations seem to agree on the rendering of οι as "some," which - in my view - has no grammatical basis.

One of the commentators kind of gives us a "tell:"

"The doubters could not have been any of the eleven, for they had seen the Lord more than once at Jerusalem, and had had indubitable proofs that he had risen from the dead, and was no mere spirit or spiritual appearance, but possessed of his former body, with new powers, faculties, and laws."

==============

This is the sort of interjection that I don't need/want in my translation, thanks!

==============

I think, if anything, Matthew is telling us that the eleven bowed to him, but second guessed (which is supported by other "doubt texts") what they were doing.
"Man will not live off of bread alone, but by every word proceeding through the mouth of God." "You are not able to serve God and wealth.".

User Info: YHWH_Saves

YHWH_Saves
1 month ago#8
Also, it strikes me the_hedonist posted...
‘distazo’ (should it be ‘doubt’ or ‘hesitation’ or ‘waiver’)

As for this part, again, I'm not the come-all/end-all of Greek, but it seems to me that the literal rendering of this verb tells us what is meant:

- dis - two
- stazo - stand

=========

Or, literally, to stand in two places at once. Synonymous with double-mindness, second-guessing or "doubt."

=========

Perhaps, since this is the close of Matthew's Gospel, translators were fearful of imparting modern readers with the sense that his very own disciples began their commission with doubt?

After all, doubt is the antithesis of faith, and faith (belief-ism) is what we've built our religion on, no?
"Man will not live off of bread alone, but by every word proceeding through the mouth of God." "You are not able to serve God and wealth.".

User Info: the_hedonist

the_hedonist
4 weeks ago#9
Yeah, I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. It’s just weird that it’s every single translation that I’ve found, even those claiming to be ‘literal.’
'Tis so sweet to trust in Jesus, just to take him at his word.
Just to rest upon his promise, just to know, "Thus saith the Lord."

User Info: YHWH_Saves

YHWH_Saves
4 weeks ago#10
the_hedonist posted...
it’s every single translation

Yeah, it's very strange. Usually, there's one translation that goes against the grain for these ambiguous texts, but not in this case...

Even more weird, considering there is no variant within the Greek manuscripts here, either.

========

I'm not sure that any important theology hangs on this verse, but it seems odd that πνευμα is only translated as "wind" 2 times, out of hundreds of occurrences. In John 3:8, for example, it is actually - within the same verse - translated as "Spirit." Doubly so, considering there is another Greek word for wind.
"Man will not live off of bread alone, but by every word proceeding through the mouth of God." "You are not able to serve God and wealth.".
  1. Boards
  2. Religion
  3. To anyone who knows/studies Greek, has a mainstream translation ever...