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  3. Proof of god is a moral question. Do you see the morals shown for god as good or

User Info: kozlo100

kozlo100
2 months ago#21
GnosticBishop posted...
Ancient Gnostic Christians named Yahweh a demiurge for a reason.


Well yes, but they believed him to be subordinate to a supreme being. There is no one above Yahweh in this hypothetical, so calling him a demiurge makes less sense in the traditional meaning of the word.
Time flies like the wind,
and fruit flies like a banana.

User Info: GnosticBishop

GnosticBishop
2 months ago#22
YHWH_Saves posted...
First, notice the bolded admission of subjectivity. You seem to believe that you are the final arbiter of moral truth. The scriptures disagree with you on this one, as you probably suspect.


I see the scriptures disagreeing with you.
Here are the ones I follow and if you prove your claim as well, I will look at it.
If you can't, you are refuted by the following.
Gen3;22 Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil;
1 Thessalonians 5:21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.

If you prefer to think god gave you a brain to not use it, then -----

YHWH_Saves posted...
Secondly, the point about "Jesus would" tiptoes around the fact that the dead are redeemed in Christ.


Only if you think Jesus would break the laws he said he came to fulfil.

You have swallowed a lie and don’t care how evil you make Jesus to keep your feel good get out of hell free card.

It is a lie, first and foremost because, like it or not, having another innocent person suffer or die for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral. To abdicate your personal responsibility for your actions or use a scapegoat is immoral.

You also have to ignore what Jesus, as a Jewish Rabbi, would have taught his people.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Psa 49;7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

There is no way that you would teach your children to use a scapegoat to escape their just punishments and here you are doing just that.

Jesus is just a smidge less immoral than his demiurge genocidal father, and here you are trying to put him as low in moral fibre as Yahweh. Satan applauds you though as you are doing her work.

Come and discuss the morality or immorality of scapegoating and not your imaginary immoral beliefs.

YHWH_Saves posted...
Therefore, Jesus does not need to condemn God for anything. Jesus is an extension of the SAME GOD's mercy/grace.


The O.P. shows the huge difference in attitude and morals but if you want to live with that inconsistency, then you really must think god does not want you to think.

YHWH_Saves posted...
Because we know that God is good/love, we can understand every instance of seeming contradiction to be a misapplication of our limited nature to that of God.


You limit god and man and ignore that we gained his same3 moral sense in Eden as the quote above confirms.

Strange that in our dualistic reality, you would take god's yin away from his yang, especially since he states through scriptures that he created from his mind both the concepts of good and the concepts of evil.

The rest of your post is supernaturally based delusional thinking.

If you had two sons, one good and the other evil, would you knowingly punish the good one for the evil acts of the other?

That is how one makes an analogical comparison.

Regards
DL

User Info: GnosticBishop

GnosticBishop
2 months ago#23
kozlo100 posted...
GnosticBishop posted...
Ancient Gnostic Christians named Yahweh a demiurge for a reason.


Well yes, but they believed him to be subordinate to a supreme being. There is no one above Yahweh in this hypothetical, so calling him a demiurge makes less sense in the traditional meaning of the word.


Not when the moral issues are looked at and not the names applied.

You might have noted that morals are the issue of the O.P.

Regards
DL

User Info: YHWH_Saves

YHWH_Saves
2 months ago#24
GnosticBishop posted...
Gen3;22 Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil;
1 Thessalonians 5:21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.

Neither of these is a direct response to your questioning of God's moral character.

More relevant verses would be:

"This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all." - 1 John 1:5

"Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one." - James 1:13

"“For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,”declares the Lord. “As the heavens are higher than the earth,so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts." - Isaiah 55:8 (In response to "God is genocidal like Hitler.")

=================

According to the scriptures, the only thing we can know of God's gracious plan for rescuing humanity from itself, and the sting of death, is known through Jesus. And by Him, we know that God does not seek to destroy, but to save. That He does not desire that anyone should die, but that they'd turn in repentance. This is the whole heart of God.

GnosticBishop posted...
The O.P. shows the huge difference in attitude and morals but if you want to live with that inconsistency, then you really must think god does not want you to think.

You're free to think/challenge, but it's not ideal to keep repeating the same incomplete/wrong arguments about God's character.

GnosticBishop posted...
You limit god and man and ignore that we gained his same3 moral sense in Eden as the quote above confirms.

Strange that in our dualistic reality, you would take god's yin away from his yang, especially since he states through scriptures that he created from his mind both the concepts of good and the concepts of evil.

The rest of your post is supernaturally based delusional thinking.

If you had two sons, one good and the other evil, would you knowingly punish the good one for the evil acts of the other?

That is how one makes an analogical comparison.

God did not punish Jesus. That is PSA nonsense, and isn't the only/default view of Orthodox Christianity.

Secondly, I don't philosophically require both yin/yang for completeness. God doesn't have to be philosophically "complete" in order to be God. I understand the argument, but I have the same problem with this as I do with "There's got to be evil in the world in order for their to be real good/love." I think that this is making excuses for evil/bad choices.

I will never tolerate evil on the basis that it's necessary for "balance." I don't think "duality" is necessary. I much prefer all-goodness.

Aside from that, which can easily become philosophically complex, God is Father. [Good] fathers always make decisions with the best interests of their children in mind. Sometimes, these decisions seem harsh, because we are children. Sometimes, they seem easy/light. We use these terms to categorize decisions that we - not being God/father - do not fully comprehend.

In short, we do not have to understand God. We can and should truth Him, because He has demonstrated Himself in Christ.
"Man will not live off of bread alone, but by every word proceeding through the mouth of God." "You are not able to serve God and wealth.".
(edited 2 months ago)

User Info: GnosticBishop

GnosticBishop
2 months ago#25
YHWH_Saves posted...
Neither of these is a direct response to your questioning of God's moral character.


They were not given for that purpose.

It was to show ours.

On Jesus dying for you.

You have swallowed a lie and don’t care how evil you make Jesus to keep your feel good get out of hell free card.

It is a lie, first and foremost because, like it or not, having another innocent person suffer or die for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral. To abdicate your personal responsibility for your actions or use a scapegoat is immoral.

You also have to ignore what Jesus, as a Jewish Rabbi, would have taught his people.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Psa 49;7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

There is no way that you would teach your children to use a scapegoat to escape their just punishments and here you are doing just that.

Jesus is just a smidge less immoral than his demiurge genocidal father, and here you are trying to put him as low in moral fibre as Yahweh. Satan applauds you though as you are doing her work.

If you cannot recognize your immorality, and given your inability to do decent apologetics and ignore what I quote while expecting me to pay attention to what you quote, indicates hypocrisy and I am not interested in correcting your deflections and lies.

Come back if you can be honest.

Regards
DL

User Info: YHWH_Saves

YHWH_Saves
2 months ago#26
GnosticBishop posted...
You have swallowed a lie and don’t care how evil you make Jesus to keep your feel good get out of hell free card.

You're responding to general, mainstream Christianity, something I've distanced myself from in every response I've ever given to you.

I don't view Christianity as a "get out of jail free card," because I don't believe in the traditional conception of hell.

I want to engage you, since you seem to be the only regular user here, but you've not shown any effort to actually respond to what folks have said.

I don't believe in PSA, and don't view Jesus as the scapegoat for humanity's sin. And lots of our Eastern Orthodox Christian brothers don't believe this, either.

===============

Jesus has shown us the Way, but we have to walk it. He is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world, is a symbolic way to call to attention how Jesus challenges the foundation laid by Cain, perpetuated by Satanic accusation/slander.

He is the new Adam, who displays perfect obedience to the will of God, and as a result of his Life, human beings now understand/know the God they've always claimed to worship. His teaching, and life embodiment, are the sole measure against which we judge the world's affairs.

==============

He is the one who bound the strong man, and who plundered His goods (Satan, human beings' souls, respectively).

Christianity is more nuanced than its mainstream versions. When you argue against an 'evil Jesus/God' who does child murder to save people from His own anger, you simplify very complex theology. And yes, some do believe in that simplified version, but that's hardly the face of Christian orthodoxy. We don't need to supplant Christianity with a subversive Gnostic approach. We can return to God by simply reviving the original teachings/interpretations of Jesus' ministry.
"Man will not live off of bread alone, but by every word proceeding through the mouth of God." "You are not able to serve God and wealth.".

User Info: PokemonExpert44

PokemonExpert44
2 months ago#27
GnosticBishop = Joke Account

:)
I might just 6-0 you in Pokemon. Watch out for my awesome teams.

User Info: GnosticBishop

GnosticBishop
2 months ago#28
YHWH_Saves posted...
You're responding to general, mainstream Christianity, something I've distanced myself from in every response I've ever given to you.


Then distance yourself from supernatural garbage and we can chat.

I admit that the Eastern Orthodox have somewhat of a better ideology than the West but they are still into supernatural beliefs that were not in the older Jewish religion that your religion usurped when Western Christianity did the same.

Instead of an religion of esoteric ecumenists like Jesus and the Jews, your religion went into the literal reading of myths just as Western Christianity did.

The Jewish Yahweh was not a genocidal son murderer to the Jews as they were not literal readers of their Torah and used Midrash. Christianity, be it Eastern or Western went literalist and ruined the worth of the bible.

Because you are so close to the mainstream, I can treat you like the mainstream.

Regards
DL

User Info: GnosticBishop

GnosticBishop
2 months ago#29
YHWH_Saves posted...
He is the new Adam,


Yahweh is an androgenous god.

I have a clip from a right wing fundamental scholar that shows that if you are right and Jesus is the second Adam, born of a virgin, then like all parthenogenetic births, Jesus would have been biologically female all of her life.

Your god is not who you think he is.

Regards
DL

User Info: WelshGamer82

WelshGamer82
2 months ago#30
YHWH_Saves posted...
I want to engage you


Why? It's really not worth it. You've already highlighted the reason:

YHWH_Saves posted...
you've not shown any effort to actually respond to what folks have said.


This is not going to change. You're engaging in a colossal waste of time with zero actual benefit. I repeat, this is not going to change.
Amazing Love, How can it be? That you my king would die for me.
Amazing Love, I know it's true. And it's my joy to honour you.
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