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  3. Limits to religious freedom

User Info: LunaticCritic

LunaticCritic
1 month ago#41
PurpleLizard posted...
Saying that gay marriages should be allowed is different from saying that they're exactly the same thing as straight marriages


...and how are they not?

kozlo100 posted...
PurpleLizard posted...
But one DID demand an artist bake a particular cake, a cake that was never offered for sale because it was never baked.


I think this is where we're talking past each other and not on the same page. Let me explain it a slightly different way, maybe I can be more clear. The baking of wedding cakes, with whatever customization and consultations that requires, is a service he provides to his customers. I believe he both is and should be required to provide that service equally, as well as provide the product that results from it.


Why force it to appeal to all as opposed to letting the market punish them for not doing so? The maker has their freedom to refuse service, but risks alienating a portion of their customers and the negative impact on their reputation, which would then either force the maker to change their stance to avoid said negative impacts or stand their ground and take the losses head on, no?
The user formerly known as crazygamer999.
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/1312-the-ninth-dimension

User Info: PurpleLizard

PurpleLizard
1 month ago#42
LunaticCritic posted...

...and how are they not?


What do you mean?
1994-0244-1993
(edited 1 month ago)

User Info: kozlo100

kozlo100
1 month ago#43
PurpleLizard posted...
snip


Let me come at this from a different angle. If this baker sells me a wedding cake, and then tragically my wedding gets called off on the day, after I've taken delivery of the cake, do you think I ought to be allowed to give that cake to the same-sex couple who's booked the venue in the time slot after mine?

LunaticCritic posted...
Why force it to appeal to all as opposed to letting the market punish them for not doing so?


Because US history shows that the market is abjectly terrible at correcting for things like this.
Time flies like the wind,
and fruit flies like a banana.
(edited 1 month ago)

User Info: PurpleLizard

PurpleLizard
2 weeks ago#44
kozlo100 posted...

Let me come at this from a different angle. If this baker sells me a wedding cake, and then tragically my wedding gets called off on the day, after I've taken delivery of the cake, do you think I ought to be allowed to give that cake to the same-sex couple who's booked the venue in the time slot after mine?


Define "allowed." I mean, I think you should be "allowed" to do most things. If you trick a Jewish scribe into selling you a scroll, and then desecrate it, I don't think you should be legally punished, but that's a different issue from the scribe refusing service to people who say "I will wipe my ass with your scrolls; now make them for me against your will." I also think people should be legally allowed to commit adultery.

But anyway, you're purposely framing it as an interchangeable food item, to which, if that's how you're choosing to look at it, I have to respond that I've no problem with one person feeding another person some meaningless piece of bread when it's their own property. In reality, of course, most wedding cakes are not interchangeable, nor simply given on the day of the wedding; that was the whole crux of the issue. The cake in your most recent scenario is 1 .a completely generic food item, 2. has no indication that it's for a specific wedding, 3. has no emotional value to any of the people involved and 4. is already made, so you don't have to answer whether someone can be forced to make it. I don't see how it has anything to do with the situation we were discussing.

Now, let's say somebody is conducting a polygamous marriage. He wants to commission a cake for his simultaneous wedding to two women. He could go to the store and get a generic cake in a box, but goes to a wedding cake bakery instead, and commissions it specifically for that purpose. It's for a specific event on a specific day, specifically to celebrate his polygamy. He doesn't want to get any old cake and bring it to his wedding; he wants the baker to acknowledge that it's a wedding cake and to bake it with that in his mind (the same way you commission a wedding dress particularly). The baker is uncomfortable, and declines. The polygamist is even MORE interested in having this guy bake his cake now; the fact that he's a monogamist and is opposed to polygamous marriage, rather than repulsing him from that baker, causes him to INSIST that he do it. The polygamist is not only in the wrong, but being deeply spiteful.
1994-0244-1993
(edited 2 weeks ago)

User Info: kozlo100

kozlo100
2 weeks ago#45
PurpleLizard posted...
The cake in your most recent scenario is 1 .a completely generic food item, 2. has no indication that it's for a specific wedding, 3. has no emotional value to any of the people involved and 4. is already made, so you don't have to answer whether someone can be forced to make it.


Don't change my hypothetical. My cake is a completely customized and specially ordered food item that was fully indicated to be for a specific wedding and has emotional value both for me, for the person I'm giving it to, and possibly for the baker as well. It is already made though, I'll give you that.

So, by "allowed", I mean is it ethically acceptable. Am I doing something wrong by giving this cake to my friend? Why is what I'm doing wrong? What are my moral obligations here? How much authority does the baker have over what I do with the cake after I take delivery? Is the cake mine to do with as I wish, or is it not?
Time flies like the wind,
and fruit flies like a banana.
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