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User Info: bfslick50

bfslick50
3 weeks ago#21
Hell is separation from God. Any specifics beyond that are unknown.
"Something's wrong! Murder isn't working and that's all we're good at." ~Futurama

User Info: the_hedonist

the_hedonist
3 weeks ago#22
It seems to me that God’s love truly is unconditional. In other words, his loving orientation to all is the same, regardless of how sinful they are or how they respond to his love.

To put it in human terms. I have two children. If my son disobeys me in the same moment that my daughter obeys me, it is loving for me to discipline my son and to reward my daughter. Loving them the same sometimes looks different.

The judgment of God, in my opinion, is simply his stating what is true. It is not him seeking repayment. He judges when someone’s relationship with him is in good working order or bad working order. And as humans are designed to be in good working order with their creator, the experience of being in bad working order is hellish.

As to the problem of evil, it comes down to free will. God gave us free will and the downside of that is the possibility of suffering.

There’s some related thoughts I had in another topic. I started chiming in to the convo on post #25 and stopped at #52. I touched on the problem of evil
and the eternal nature of the afterlife. Anything else I would add to this topic I’ve already said there. Check it out:

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/263-religion/77491606
'Tis so sweet to trust in Jesus, just to take him at his word.
Just to rest upon his promise, just to know, "Thus saith the Lord."
(edited 3 weeks ago)

User Info: kts123

kts123
3 weeks ago#23
A couple of semesters ago I had the opportunity to study cortical blindness in a physiological psychology class. Full-blown cortical blindness is mediated by destruction of the striate-cortex. The blindness is so absolute that when the damage happens in a car accident, the patient will often not realize they are blind for several days. The problem is that the cognition of sight vanishes. The person becomes blind even in their own dreams, and becomes incapable of even remembering what sight was like. They become incapable of sight perception: physically, in memory, and in imagination. So deep is the blindness that the aforementioned car accident survivors lack the cognitive faculty to realize that they are blind until an external factor brings it to their attention.
roomofpictures.com

User Info: xenoswug

xenoswug
2 weeks ago#24
That's a lot to sift through, but the thesis seems to be: How can a God who is the literal equivalent to love institute eternal torment?

That's an easy one, but it requires a nuanced mind.

==============

Without unpacking the viewpoint that says "you go to hell if bad," the Christian conception of life involves walking closely with God, and abiding in His truth/moral instruction/wisdom. Imagine that God is the oasis amid an immense desert which stretches to the ends of the earth. Now imagine that someone willfully chooses to never enter into the oasis. Said person is choosing to live without water, shade or refuge from the perils of the desert.

Oh, and the excuse of not being able to find the desert is moot, with the advent of Christ. Christ has paved the way. He has clearly revealed the goodness of God to humanity, without symbol or obtuse doctrine.

===========================

Need another analog?

I'm a good guy. I'll give to strangers. I'll sit and listen to problems, for hours if necessary. I would take a bullet for those whom I know.

If someone chooses to wrong me continuously, or to live apart from my friendship, they will not inherit these benefits.
Ego eimi he othos kai he aletheia kai he zoe; OUDEIS erchetai pros ton patera ei me de emou!!! - Iesous Xristos

User Info: PurpleLizard

PurpleLizard
2 weeks ago#25
xenoswug posted...

Oh, and the excuse of not being able to find the desert is moot, with the advent of Christ. Christ has paved the way. He has clearly revealed the goodness of God to humanity, without symbol or obtuse doctrine.


Not so clearly, because most of humanity isn't Christian, and in their minds aren't willingly choosing hell.
1994-0244-1993

User Info: xenoswug

xenoswug
2 weeks ago#26
PurpleLizard posted...
Not so clearly, because most of humanity isn't Christian, and in their minds aren't willingly choosing hell.

Temporarily discard the Christian lingo.

Most humanity - even those outside the fold of Christianity - acknowledge charity, kindness, love, compassion, etc. I would argue that no one violates these in complete ignorance of the consequences for bad behavior.

This is why murderers hide their victims' bodies; why thieves wear masks; why church scandals are hidden via a careful manipulation of the books.

===============

Because we are aware of the "ought" (what I say corresponds with "Christian values"), then we should abide by it. If we willfully choose to disregard these things, then we should be aware that we're reaping ill rewards. Call it "hell," or whatever else you like.

The Way is good, and those who choose to live contrary to it will inherit the bad consequences of living wrongly.
(edited 2 weeks ago)

User Info: JDavidC

JDavidC
1 week ago#27
OrangeWizard posted...
JDavidC posted...

A statement such as 'can be wrong' needs to be backed up with evidence, not simply asserted baselessly


Not when it concerns a baseless assumption, such as "omniscience means being able to see the future".
Your definition of omniscience isn't based on evidence, or if it is, you haven't shown it, so I don't see why I should have to provide evidence when you haven't.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/don_stewart_359.cfm Biblical evidence included that God *DOES* know the future, which fits right in with my definition of omniscience. Even *humans* can predict the future to some extent (e.g. weather forecasting). Even *I* have knowledge of the future. For example, I know in 50 years, the year will be 2069 AD. Saying that omniscience cannot include foreknowledge of the future is hogwash.

If you believe I am making baseless assumptions, prove it please.


Now, eternal suffering clearly exists in many versions of the Bible. Revelation 20:10 for example.


Not necessarily. Here's the word for "tormented": https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G928&t=KJV

The use of the word "tormented" (basanízo) in this verse may not indicate any sort of pain or suffering. The first "usage", means "to test", by a touchstone (básanos). The word for "jailers" (basanistés) is also derived from this word, so they could also be called "tormentors". Perhaps this verse means that they will be "jailed", instead of what you might think: "tortured". It could also mean that the judgement of the lake of fire serves as a "touchstone" for eternity, that they were tested and found false.

There are Christian sects out there who are well aware of this verse and it's reference to "torment", and yet, do not believe in any sort of eternal suffering. They will, most likely, have an internally consistent explanation to give you.


The mere fact that there IS eternal suffering mentioned in many versions of the Bible is absolute proof of its corruption, when coupled with my argument demolishing the doctrine of eternal suffering.


https://biblehub.com/revelation/20-10.htm

Assuming that the word "torment" can be explained away, there are only three versions on this page that use the word "torture", and one says "in pain". The majority say "torment".

I don't think this is "absolute proof of its corruption", since I and many others read the same bible and do not come away believing in eternal suffering. How is it that we are able to do this?
I think you're missing the point. If *ANY* version of the Bible, even one, has any mention of eternal suffering, then it contradicts the definition of God, and renders its version of Christianity false due to its corruption. Hence, this *IS* absolute proof that the Bible has been corrupted. By admitting you have not one, but three examples where 'torture' is used, you have proven my point for me.

Stuff like your analysis of the Greek used for 'torment' to mean something else is an example of how the Bible can be corrupted. Translation can be a tricky business, and a source of corruption changing the Bible's meaning, which is something God would not want to happen.
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(edited 1 week ago)

User Info: JDavidC

JDavidC
1 week ago#28
SockThief posted...
JDavidC posted...
Omnibenevolent *IS* supposed to mean that God loves all people at all times.


Alrighty. The Bible never uses the word "omnibenevolent" so I don't see a need to force God to fit into its definition.

Let me ask you this: Do you believe that according to the Bible, God is 100% pure, incorruptible good? If so, that's *exactly* the same thing as omnibenovelent. The Bible may not use the word omnibenevolent, but being good, by nature, is about being loving to others and caring for them, not just loving yourself and caring for yourself.

Furthermore, you claim that God does not love all people all the time. Would you consider God a friend? If so, Proverbs 17:17 destroys your claim.


Why? Just because I'm God's friend doesn't mean everybody who ever existed is God's friend. The Bible literally says that an unsaved person is an enemy of God (Romans 5).

Did Jesus not say that you are to love your enemies? If God did not love his enemies, he'd be failing to live up to his standards of righteousness. He has to love his neighbours as he does himself if he is to do so. Furthermore, with the parable of the Good Samaritan, even enemies are your neighbours. So God's enemies are his neighbours too, and if he's to live up to his own laws, he should love his enemies. Furthermore, stopping loving people, or failing to start loving them, would also be violations of those laws. I don't see how anyone can interpret those laws to be anything but laws to be carried out all the time, not just some of the time.
Your claim that eternal punishment is fair is, quite frankly, utter nonsense and without any basis in fact (you didn't provide any).


Um, my basis is that if God prescribes it, it is fair.

Please, please, PLEASE do not resort to 'because X said so'. That is a terrible argument. Please think for yourself and don't let other people do your thinking for you. I want to know why *you* think it is fair, with your own reasoning. Your basis is meaningless as I do not know God's reasoning behind it in your hypothetical scenario. What I want is the reasoning, not simply trusting something someone else *MIGHT* have said.

Just because you have this idea that justice is always supposed to reform somebody for a good future outcome doesn't mean God has to share your opinion.

Justice is about being fair and reasonable. What's fair and reasonable about a future outcome where someone is permanently screwed, and furthermore, this is allowed to happen by someone who knew it would happen from the beginning of time? This also contradicts how someone who is loving would behave if the end result is that someone being screwed. It paints God as someone powerless to stop people from ending up being condemned for eternity, which contradicts omnipotence big time.
3DS FC: 3093-7112-3992
(edited 1 week ago)

User Info: OrangeWizard

OrangeWizard
1 week ago#29
JDavidC posted...
https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/don_stewart_359.cfm Biblical evidence included that God *DOES* know the future, which fits right in with my definition of omniscience. Even *humans* can predict the future to some extent (e.g. weather forecasting). Even *I* have knowledge of the future. For example, I know in 50 years, the year will be 2069 AD. Saying that omniscience cannot include foreknowledge of the future is hogwash.

If you believe I am making baseless assumptions, prove it please.


I said you were making a baseless assertion because, at the time of my post, you had made an assertion without providing a basis for it. Now you have provided a basis. Calm down.

Also, didn't you just say "Please think for yourself and don't let other people do your thinking for you"? You're directly linking to someone else making the "God knows the future" argument instead of constructing it yourself. No big deal, just though it was amusing.

But that isn't very good evidence. The author only used one verse to directly claim that God knows the future, and that verse can be interpreted in different ways, ways that don't involve knowledge of the future. It's evidence, but it's weak.

Remember, you were asking if there were any flaws in your reasoning. Don't get mad at me for pointing them out.

JDavidC posted...
I think you're missing the point. If *ANY* version of the Bible, even one, has any mention of eternal suffering, then it contradicts the definition of God, and renders its version of Christianity false due to its corruption. Hence, this *IS* absolute proof that the Bible has been corrupted. By admitting you have not one, but three examples where 'torture' is used, you have proven my point for me.


If I were to make a hand-copy of, say, the constitution and its amendments, and mess up while doing it so that it ends up being pro-slavery and anti-freedom of speech, does that mean that the constitution has been corrupted? No, that would be silly, right? The original constitution still exists, it's just my copy that is corrupted.

So same thing. The "original" still exists in the form of the manuscripts. When people make translations and versions, the original isn't altered.

Anyone can write whatever they want and then pass it off as "the bible", couldn't they? It's not like there's some globally-recognized council that approves or denies each translation as "valid".

So let's say, for the sake of argument, that 90% of the bibles of the world are corrupted in some way. So? Does that mean that God is going to punish the people who are doing Christianity wrong? Not necessarily. God could, instead, be reasonable, and not punish people for things outside of their control.
(edited 1 week ago)
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