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User Info: JDavidC

JDavidC
2 months ago#1
OK, I have some questions I'd like to ask, that may be unusual, but I want to see what sort of apologetics can be used to answer these questions.

Is there a flaw in the following 'proof' that God does not exist and Christianity is false?

I believe I've posted stuff about this before, so rather than search for specific Bible verses I'll quote certain key points made in the Bible, along with my own interpretations.

God is so loving that 'God IS love'.
Love is described with many qualities, including that it 'keeps no records of wrongs' (which I believe means it does not stop or diminish no matter how badly someone messes up, but another part of love involving discipline, judging and punishment is a separate matter where records of wrongs WOULD be kept).
Love never fails. Love always protects.
God is omnipotent (all powerful, but I'm not extending this definition to do stuff logically impossible, like creating an object that is a cube and a sphere at the same time).
God is omniscient (and I am taking this to its most extreme, as he declares the end from the beginning, and this means he knows the future right down to the last detail as part of knowing everything).
God is omnibenevolent (which is where the love kicks in, and it is UNCONDITIONAL love, used because it's the best way for everyone to prosper, not because of 'reward').

Now for the problem which turns up in many Bibles.

Eternal suffering in Hell, Jesus preaching about an eternal sin that will not be forgiven etc.

Here is the problem, the punishment is infinitely disproportionate, does nothing to reform the person being punished and show them a better alternative, and would in fact be infinitely evil.

Now, here is where the 'proof' that God does not exist comes in. This punishment means that love has in fact failed to win someone to Jesus, or at least stop them from sinning which is ultimately detrimental, and there is no protection being offered at this stage, which contradicts what the Bible itself says about love. In other words, God is lacking qualities of the love described in the Bible, and hence is NOT omnibenevolent.

Eternal suffering in Hell and the statements about love essentially state that God is both omnibenevolent, and that he is NOT omnibenevolent at the same time. Herein lies the contradiction. An object/person/being with a self-contradictory definition cannot exist, so to quote H2G2, God vanishes in a puff of logic! If there is no God, then there is no Christianity, no Jesus, the entire Bible is a myth...
... or ... maybe ... something else has gone wrong. Do the various copies of the Bible match the original texts that made up the Bible in the first place? Personally, I believe they do not.

I have two options here, either I believe the Bible has been corrupted, or that Christianity, in its entirety, is false. I can't choose to believe anything else. Given some anecdotal evidence that I have, along with the odd 'interesting' prophecy fulfillment (Israel formed in one day on 1948), I have decided to go with Bible corruption and God does exist. There's no alternative that I can possibly believe in. I tried looking at alternatives. Annihilationism doesn't save the person, and is not the unconditional love described in the Bible either. Universalism, however, is the only remaining option, and it makes sense. However, that doesn't mean God isn't going to punish people even if there is no eternal suffering (one thing that worries me when people think about universalism is that they may falsely believe they can do whatever they want, only to find their salvation gets greatly delayed).

EDIT - Do not reply yet, this is a two-part post.
3DS FC: 3093-7112-3992
(edited 2 months ago)

User Info: JDavidC

JDavidC
2 months ago#2
The second part of my post got eaten, so I'll just recreate it.

Next question: Why would God allow things to get so bad that the Bible would be corrupted like this? The amount of psychological suffering this would cause would be extreme. Literature such as the sermon 'Sinners in the hands of an angry god' makes for horrifying reading.

On to a related question, the problem of suffering/evil. Why does this exist? Why does God allow it? Why does God cause suffering? Why does he behave in ways that seem at odds with his teachings? Can anyone explain this? All I've got is a hidden objective morality aimed at maximising net gain for everyone in accordance with perfect love, and I know that is a completely unsatisfactory answer, given all the suffering that has happened (Biblical and historical). I only can judge now where I can see the end result, like eternal suffering in Hell. The rest will have to wait until I see God.

God seems to value free will, which I will define as the ability to choose what you want to do next, without being coerced, but being aware of consequences your actions may have (and not being aware of others, unless you're omniscient), regardless of whether everything is predetermined. Eternal suffering in Hell negates this, which is another reason I have to throw that doctrine out. What is so important about free will in relation to the problem of suffering/evil?

On death, the commonly accepted view is you're judged and go to Heaven or Hell, but isn't this a false dichotomy? I don't understand why so many people think there are only two choices, instead of infinitely many possibilities based on (this is my opinion) being judged by Jesus Christ, punished for sins, and then being asked what you'd like to do next once the punishment is over. Even the Catholic Church went with the idea of purgatory as a third option. It just seems strange that people think there are only two choices, and one of them is so bad there is really no choice, and you're coerced into going to Heaven or burn for all eternity, or be separated from God forever.

Any thoughts on these questions?

BTW you may now post.
3DS FC: 3093-7112-3992
(edited 2 months ago)

User Info: IHeartRadiation

IHeartRadiation
2 months ago#3
JDavidC posted...
Here is the problem, the punishment is infinitely disproportionate, does nothing to reform the person being punished and show them a better alternative, and would in fact be infinitely evil.

What makes you think that someone who'd be worth a continued chance at redemption would be in Hell?

Forgiving someone 700x7 times is love, forgiving them forever is insanity and we'd all be stuck living in this world.

JDavidC posted...

On to a related question, the problem of suffering/evil. Why does this exist? Why does God allow it? Why does God cause suffering? Why does he behave in ways that seem at odds with his teachings?

You don't earn friends by locking them in a container and forcing them to hang out with you. If God did not want beings born with the option of evil, He'd constantly brainwash them or would not bother with the creation of life at all.

JDavidC posted...
Eternal suffering in Hell negates this, which is another reason I have to throw that doctrine out. What is so important about free will in relation to the problem of suffering/evil?
Free will does not remove consequences for exerting that will. If you play with explosives, expect to lose a limb. Nobody in Hell saw the path to Heaven and chose to go down it. And it's only my head canon, but who says Hell would not just be everyone exerting their own unsavory form of free will to everyone else?
I don't get it either.

User Info: OrangeWizard

OrangeWizard
2 months ago#4
JDavidC posted...
Is there a flaw in the following 'proof' that God does not exist and Christianity is false?


Yes. It is based on the following assumptions:
1) Your interpretation of the bible is correct
2) Your interpretations of God are correct (that He is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent)
2a) Your definitions of omnipotence, omniscience, and omnibenevolence are correct
3) The bible is corrupted.

Any of these assumptions can be wrong.
(edited 2 months ago)

User Info: Hutchinson90

Hutchinson90
2 months ago#5
I’m not going to make an argument here. You appear to be someone who is well versed and cannot be swayed. However. If you are wrong, you go to hell. If I’m wrong, then nothing happens. However, if I’m right...well, those consequences seem like they should be convincing enough.
You don't even know my real name. I'm the f***ing lizard king.

User Info: darklao

darklao
2 months ago#6
Hutchinson90 posted...
I’m not going to make an argument here. You appear to be someone who is well versed and cannot be swayed. However. If you are wrong, you go to hell. If I’m wrong, then nothing happens. However, if I’m right...well, those consequences seem like they should be convincing enough.

How do you square the idea of an omnibenevolent God with the idea of that God sending someone to hell for being wrong about his existence?

Or do you just pick the religion with the worst hell/best heaven and worship that God because it's all a cost/benefit analysis?

User Info: Hutchinson90

Hutchinson90
2 months ago#7
darklao posted...
Hutchinson90 posted...
I’m not going to make an argument here. You appear to be someone who is well versed and cannot be swayed. However. If you are wrong, you go to hell. If I’m wrong, then nothing happens. However, if I’m right...well, those consequences seem like they should be convincing enough.

How do you square the idea of an omnibenevolent God with the idea of that God sending someone to hell for being wrong about his existence?

Or do you just pick the religion with the worst hell/best heaven and worship that God because it's all a cost/benefit analysis?


That’s not what it’s about. It isn’t about picking and choosing what you see is best. But if you study those other religions, even other branches, there are no other saviors. Everything is based on good Will and merit, karma. Jesus is about love and forgiveness. And if you as a person cannot value that alone without the fact of God or Jesus, where do you stand? Do you have faith that everything was a perfect accident in creation?

I don’t have enough faith to be a nonbeliever. Even if you can’t fully trust the words of the Bible. Christianity wasn’t created because of a bible or their several translations. Many men died for those beliefs and what they saw before they even had a bible in print.
You don't even know my real name. I'm the f***ing lizard king.
(edited 2 months ago)

User Info: PokemonExpert44

PokemonExpert44
2 months ago#8
darklao posted...
Hutchinson90 posted...
I’m not going to make an argument here. You appear to be someone who is well versed and cannot be swayed. However. If you are wrong, you go to hell. If I’m wrong, then nothing happens. However, if I’m right...well, those consequences seem like they should be convincing enough.

How do you square the idea of an omnibenevolent God with the idea of that God sending someone to hell for being wrong about his existence?

Or do you just pick the religion with the worst hell/best heaven and worship that God because it's all a cost/benefit analysis?


troll/10
I might just 6-0 you in Pokemon. Watch out for my awesome teams.

User Info: JDavidC

JDavidC
2 months ago#9
OrangeWizard posted...
JDavidC posted...
Is there a flaw in the following 'proof' that God does not exist and Christianity is false?


Yes. It is based on the following assumptions:
1) Your interpretation of the bible is correct
2) Your interpretations of God are correct (that He is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent)
2a) Your definitions of omnipotence, omniscience, and omnibenevolence are correct
3) The bible is corrupted.

Any of these assumptions can be wrong.

You'll need to find flaws rather than say 'can be wrong'. Even if you took out the three omnis, you cannot call someone who would inflict eternal torture on someone for sins loving at all. It would be the opposite. The Bible is very clear on God being described as loving, no two ways about it. The contradiction that results in God being impossible to exist remains. The proof assumes the bible is not corrupted BTW, or that at least the doctrine of eternal Hell is true. The problem is the doctrine proves God does not exist if it is true, hence a loving god that would inflict eternal suffering does not exist. Either the doctrine is false by itself, or the whole thing is effectively false, including the doctrine. The Bible being corrupted is the possibility that would actually render the 'proof' not a 100% thing, and hence debunk it. That possibility is the reason I put the word proof in quotes. I don't believe it's a proper proof because that possibility adds doubt.

I’m not going to make an argument here. You appear to be someone who is well versed and cannot be swayed. However. If you are wrong, you go to hell. If I’m wrong, then nothing happens. However, if I’m right...well, those consequences seem like they should be convincing enough.
I never said I did not believe in God, rather that I do not believe in eternal suffering in Hell, as that would contradict the existence of God. If I'm wrong, it doesn't mean I go to hell. Furthermore, it is illogical to say X is true because you fear believing X is false will lead to bad consequences. Fear of X does not make X true by any means. Your faith seems to be founded on fear, rather than logic/evidence. I strongly recommend you re-examine your beliefs. Bear in mind humans can edit religious texts to put in stuff like eternal suffering as a fearmongering tool to control others. It does not automatically mean that eternal suffering is going to happen if you do NOT believe in it.
3DS FC: 3093-7112-3992
(edited 2 months ago)

User Info: OrangeWizard

OrangeWizard
2 months ago#10
JDavidC posted...
You'll need to find flaws rather than say 'can be wrong'.


"Can be wrong" is a flaw, though. You assume that God sends people to be punished eternally, for example. Not all Christians believe this. If your wrong, s major part of your argument dies

It doesn't even have to be "the Bible is corrupt", you could just have come away with the wrong conclusion, which doesn't necessarily reflect poorly on the Bible itself
(edited 2 months ago)
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