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  3. 'Kill all gays' Christian pastor is the 1st person BANNED from Ireland

User Info: OrangeWizard

OrangeWizard
4 weeks ago#31
Unless we're dealing with a country's "rights", nobody is "entitled" to anything, especially when we get international. Nobody is entitled to facebook or twitter, but they can still ban you from those platforms for your speech. Just because "rights" aren't involved, that doesn't mean it isn't censorship.

Whenever the "is X censorship?" question comes up, people in the "no" crowd often conflate the right with the ideal. People say "only the government can censor", or "it's a private company they can do what they want, it's not illegal". It's true that facebook banning someone for posting a confederate flag is not a violation of your rights in the same way that the government throwing you in jail would be. But it's still censorship. It goes against the ideal of free speech.

For an example, China will disappear you for mentioning "1989 Tiananmen Square". This isn't a violation of the rights of a Chinese person, because they never had a right to free speech. But this does go against the ideal of free speech, you and I rightly recognize this as censorship, even though the rights of a Chinese person have not been violated. Ideals transcend laws and countries.

If you want to talk about rights and laws, go ahead and do that, but when we say "censorship", we're talking about the ideal, not any specific law or constitutional right.

User Info: ledzep3__v9

ledzep3__v9
4 weeks ago#32
He's perfectly free to say whatever he wants in countries he is entitled to enter.

User Info: OrangeWizard

OrangeWizard
4 weeks ago#33
That doesn't mean that this isn't censorship.

That's like the "he can say whatever he wants in jail" hypothetical argument that I used to show as a bad example. You weren't supposed to actually use a similar argument with the exact same flaws in it.

It's like you applaud this action but you don't want to admit that it's censorship.

User Info: Hustle Kong

Hustle Kong
4 weeks ago#34
The US denies entry to dangerous religious leaders, yeah? Only fair to happen to one of our nuts.
Shooting Game never die.
It prays that the clover of luck be always in your mind.

User Info: Ashethan

Ashethan
4 weeks ago#35
OrangeWizard posted...
That doesn't mean that this isn't censorship.


So, if a Muslim says "ALL AMERICANS SHOULD BE KILLED!" we have to let them into the country? Good to know. Good to know.
Board 8 Mafia Archive: ashchive.altervista.org

User Info: kozlo100

kozlo100
4 weeks ago#36
Ashethan posted...
So, if a Muslim says "ALL AMERICANS SHOULD BE KILLED!" we have to let them into the country? Good to know. Good to know.


I actually don't think our laws currently reflect that, but they probably should if we're caring about the whole free speech thing.

Now, someone saying "I'm going to kill some Americans" is a different story.
Time flies like the wind,
and fruit flies like a banana.

User Info: Hustle Kong

Hustle Kong
4 weeks ago#37
Gerry Adams, from Sin Fein was denied entry to the US on multiple occasions for refusing to denounce violence.
Shooting Game never die.
It prays that the clover of luck be always in your mind.

User Info: Storm Shadow

Storm Shadow
3 weeks ago#38
I agree with kozlo that there is a difference between "I believe X should die" and "I'm gonna kill X." One is a declaration of mindset while the other is a declaration of intent. In my eyes, we should draw a distinction, both personally and legally, between what's a repugnant thought and what's an overt threat. Speaking for myself, I know I'd have two different opinions if someone said "You'd better eat shrimp, you buttface" or "I'm gonna cram some shrimp down your throat."
"What did I ever do to deserve this as my fate? Other than all the sinning." http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/1005-warhammer-40k

User Info: rockoperajon

rockoperajon
3 weeks ago#39
Storm Shadow posted...
I agree with kozlo that there is a difference between "I believe X should die" and "I'm gonna kill X." One is a declaration of mindset while the other is a declaration of intent. In my eyes, we should draw a distinction, both personally and legally, between what's a repugnant thought and what's an overt threat. Speaking for myself, I know I'd have two different opinions if someone said "You'd better eat shrimp, you buttface" or "I'm gonna cram some shrimp down your throat."

True, there is a difference. But, he's not just spreading his opinion that homosexuality is morally wrong. He's spreading outright lies, saying that all gay people are pedophiles and rapists. At the very least, he's committing slander. Potentially worse is that his more impressionable followers might get the idea to go out and start lynching homosexuals (or shooting up gay nightclubs), thinking that they're doing the world a service. He may not be outright inciting violence, but violence could still very easily be an outcome of his influence, and I think he knows that.
"We few... We happy few..." -William Shakespeare
"We band of buggered." -William the Bloody

User Info: OrangeWizard

OrangeWizard
3 weeks ago#40
rockoperajon posted...
At the very least, he's committing slander


Judging by my 2 minutes of research, you can't slander a large group of people. Also, even so, it would be a civil wrong (tort), which one can personally sue for, as opposed to a crime, which the state/federal government will punish you for.

rockoperajon posted...
He may not be outright inciting violence


Yeah, that's the line that has to be drawn. You can't go through a convoluted chain of causes and effects and accuse someone of indirectly causing real violence through their speech, otherwise JK Rowling would have racked up multiple life sentences.
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