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User Info: Gndlf_the_grey

Gndlf_the_grey
1 month ago#1
The Rapture - Results (13 votes)
Pre-tribulation
30.77% (4 votes)
4
Mid-tribulation
0% (0 votes)
0
Post-tribulation
23.08% (3 votes)
3
No rapture
46.15% (6 votes)
6
Other
0% (0 votes)
0
You must be registered and logged in to vote in this poll.
I was initially inspired with books by Hal Lindsey to investigate the topic in detail. My view is that it will be post-tribulation, which does indicate that it differs from that of Mr Lindsey. I also believe that the "clock started to count down" when Israel became a nation on May 14, 1948. An end-time sign:

Ezekiel 37 King James Version (KJV)
37 The hand of the Lord was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the Lord, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,
2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.
3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord God, thou knowest.
4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the Lord.
5 Thus saith the Lord God unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the Lord.
7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.
8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.
9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord God; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
13 And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the Lord have spoken it, and performed it, saith the Lord.


Please share your views and why, if you like.
The lesser of two evils is still evil.

User Info: Frolfer

Frolfer
1 month ago#2
I said "no rapture" because I associate the term with with Left Behind-type, pre-trib thinking, which I reject as being a fairly recent innovation in Christianity and one with poor scriptural support. But at this point the term "the Rapture" is just too closely associated in the popular imagination to detach it from pre-trib connotations.

I do believe that those still living at Christ's Second Coming will be taken up to heaven, though, and I believe this will happen after a final trial. So I guess it could be said that I fall into the post-trib category.
Wimoweh!
Yeah, post-Trib here. Anything before that is just Thanos snapping his fingers. >_>

But really I think a lot of people have been too quick to jump onto the pre-Trib hype train and are just buying into some popular teachings without doing any more research on the matter themselves.
https://imgur.com/09qFfLV

User Info: YHWH_Saves

YHWH_Saves
1 month ago#4
No rapture for me.

I think that everyone who is dedicated to following Christ will enter into tribulation, because the "Way" is diametrically opposed to the lusts of this world, and so long as that tension exists, nothing will feel "right." I feel ever on the brink of anger, lust and despair; it is Christ that keeps me sane, and whole. I don't believe in a "great tribulation," in the same way that Hollywood has unpacked the idea - lots of demons coming from the depths of the earth, or great global wars that kill billions. For me, aspiring to live as a child of God is persistently a "great tribulation." Every day, I feel removed from loved ones, coworkers, the church and even myself because I cannot help but see the chasm that exists between God and man. And I long desperately for God.

I also believe that Christ has already come again, during the time of the apostles. I don't believe, as many do, that the Book of Revelation was written about a distant future time period (namely, ours) during which the world would "end," and this shapes my entire eschatology.
"Man will not live off of bread alone, but by every word proceeding through the mouth of God." "You are not able to serve God and wealth.".
(edited 1 month ago)

User Info: the_hedonist

the_hedonist
1 month ago#5
No rapture, and as articulated by YHWH_Saves, no unique tribulation during some future ‘end times.’ We are told by the Bible that we will suffer if we follow Jesus.

I’m pretty ambivalent about interpreting Revelation. It’s of the sort of apocalyptic material (similar to Ezekiel or Daniel) that is highly symbolic in nature and difficult to understand until the prophecies have come to pass. I have seen some convincing arguments that most of Revelation has already come to pass, as Babylon seemed to be a picture of the Roman Empire. Not so sure about that, but I do believe that if it’s true, we still look forward to a day when Christ will return in a final sense.
'Tis so sweet to trust in Jesus, just to take him at his word.
Just to rest upon his promise, just to know, "Thus saith the Lord."

User Info: zinformant

zinformant
1 month ago#6
I have a couple-inch thick scholarly commentary on Revelation on my shelf that I've been meaning to dive into but haven't mustered the energy or attention for it yet. What concerns me in general is how this is one subject that heavily divides sects despite it being so interpretive.
Is it naive to dream of a world without war?

User Info: Gndlf_the_grey

Gndlf_the_grey
1 month ago#7
Seeking truth rather accepting other's opinions on the matter has made me question the verses for proof on the "Rapture", it felt like a get out of jail card, if you know what I mean. Preaching this pre-trib stuff is fear-mongering and produces false converts.
The still correct term for me then will be the Second Advent or Parousia.
The lesser of two evils is still evil.

User Info: Gndlf_the_grey

Gndlf_the_grey
1 month ago#8
YHWH_Saves posted...

I also believe that Christ has already come again, during the time of the apostles. I don't believe, as many do, that the Book of Revelation was written about a distant future time period (namely, ours) during which the world would "end," and this shapes my entire eschatology.


Do you not think that old Testament prophet Zechariah mentioned the second advent in these verses:

The Lord Comes and Reigns

Zechariah 14: 1 A day of the Lord is coming, Jerusalem, when your possessions will be plundered and divided up within your very walls.

2 I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city. 3 Then the Lord will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights on a day of battle. 4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south. 5 You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake a in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the Lord my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.

6 On that day there will be neither sunlight nor cold, frosty darkness. 7 It will be a unique day—a day known only to the Lord—with no distinction between day and night. When evening comes, there will be light.

and that this ties in with:

Joel 2: The Day of the Lord

28“And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions.
29 Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days.
30 I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and billows of smoke.
31 The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.
32 And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance, as the Lord has said, even among the survivors whom the Lord calls.

and also:

Matthew 24: 29 “Immediately after the distress of those days “ ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
30“Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

I am curious as to why you believe that the second advent has occurred in the time of the apostles and if you believe that there will be another return of Jesus Christ that we can look forward to?
The lesser of two evils is still evil.

User Info: the_hedonist

the_hedonist
1 month ago#9
I actually believe that there will be a second advent, but those aren’t the best passages to look at. The apostle Peter suggests that that has already been fulfilled:

14 But Peter, standing with the eleven, lifted up his voice and addressed them: "Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give ear to my words.
15 For these people are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day.
16 But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel:
17 "'And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams;
18 even on my male servants and female servants in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy.
19 And I will show wonders in the heavens above and signs on the earth below, blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke;
20 the sun shall be turned to darkness and the moon to blood, before the day of the Lord comes, the great and magnificent day.
21 And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.' - Acts 2:14-21
'Tis so sweet to trust in Jesus, just to take him at his word.
Just to rest upon his promise, just to know, "Thus saith the Lord."

User Info: YHWH_Saves

YHWH_Saves
1 month ago#10
Gndlf_the_grey posted...
I am curious as to why you believe that the second advent has occurred in the time of the apostles and if you believe that there will be another return of Jesus Christ that we can look forward to?

I appreciate the question. I'll answer as succinctly as possible. (EDIT: it didn't turn out too succinct :( )

When younger in my faith, I kept Revelation on the backburner of study, but on the forefront of faith. It was something so symbolic and cryptic, that I could not hope to unpack it. And yet, it was obviously detailing - very specifically - things that were occurring my own lifetime, some 2,000 years after the Christ event. As most, I was swept up in the imagery and mystique and believed that I lived in the end times. Some of the verses, like those mentioned, seemed to support this idea of a far and distant unfolding of prophecy.

Then I began to struggle when I started to really study the scriptures. Most of these apocalyptic books begin and close with things like, "for a near time," or "things which must very quickly come to pass," or "None standing here will taste death before the Son of Man will return," (Jesus, speaking to his disciples about his "second coming").

To cut a long story short, at some point, I felt as though if I wanted to truly understand Christ and God's plan for saving the world, I needed to stop trying to make the scriptures fit my mostly Hollywood-wrought eschatology.

Once I started diving into Revelation, I realized that all the book is written to clarify/unveil the mysteries of God's prophecies, not further conceal them. The word that we translate as "revelation" is αποκαλυψη ("apocalypse") doesn't mean what I had prior believed it to mean - "End times" (i.e., "apocalyptic scenario"). It means to take that which had prior been secret/hidden/covered and to shed light. It was a problem for me that I had come to believe that Revelation was a mysterious end times instruction booklet rather than a clarifying, unveiling of God's hidden truths. It is supposed to be the clearest of God's truths, and yet all the preachers I've heard speak of it being a mystery and/or difficult.

[sorry this is going on so long].

I'll omit the details, but in my studies, I've found that Revelation is a retelling of the entire bible. However, whereas the Jewish scriptures ended on a note that left the people in waiting for understanding, John's thesis is that God has finally put a seal on His plan for salvation, and it's the Lamb (Jesus) who conquers the world (Rome, and everyone that looks like 'em!).

John invokes the symbols of prior prophets (i.e., the "beast," the depictions of heaven, the creatures before the throne, the plagues, etc.) and explains that these are fulfilled in Christ. Specifically, the movement of true Judaism founded by Christ will undergo a new "exodus." The "beast" of Daniel's messianic prophecies is in fact Rome, and God's poor and spiritually-impoverished people will come face-to-face with it. They won't win the "war" with spears or swords, but will - as their Lord had done - overtake the most powerful nation of the ancient world with the love of God. The gentle "lamb" will conquer the "beast." In fact, when Jesus weeps over Jerusalem, he is doing so because the Jews will perish from the earth because of their physical revolt.

=========

The blessed hope is that the new world founded by Christ will come to fullness. We await for the return of Christ, but not in the "second coming/end times" way. We have become the active tenants of God's everpresent Kingdom, and "greater things than these" are we expected to do.
"Man will not live off of bread alone, but by every word proceeding through the mouth of God." "You are not able to serve God and wealth.".
(edited 1 month ago)
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