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  3. So wait, if Christians agree that God can't break logic, then why special plead?

User Info: LinkFanatic

LinkFanatic
3 months ago#1
80/80

Stating that he can't do things like create boulders so heavy that he himself can't actually lift, then why do we make an exception and postulate that God is uncaused?
Islam is Chaos Control.

User Info: kozlo100

kozlo100
3 months ago#2
That's not just a problem for Christians though, that's everyone. We exist, therefor there has to be an uncaused cause. You can go the route of the eternal, or the route of the spontaneous, but we all have to deal with the notion that we are here because something logic says can't happen happened.
Time flies like the wind,
and fruit flies like a banana.

User Info: LinkFanatic

LinkFanatic
3 months ago#3
kozlo100 posted...
We exist, therefor there has to be an uncaused cause.


Why?
Islam is Chaos Control.

User Info: kozlo100

kozlo100
3 months ago#4
Well, I suppose you could also go the route of infinite regression, but that has it's own problems as well.
Time flies like the wind,
and fruit flies like a banana.

User Info: kozlo100

kozlo100
3 months ago#5
Just as an example so it's not just a pithy one liner before I have to disappear back into this conference I'm at:

How did we get here? The Big Bang happened.

What caused the Big Bang? If you say nothing, then you're in uncaused cause territory. If you say something, then you need to ask what caused that. We obviously don't know the answer, but logic says there must be one. Whatever that cause is, what caused it? Do that same recursion.

You run into the problem of eventually needing an uncaused cause, or needing an explanation of how we accomplished the feat of traversing an infinity to get to where we are. Logic seemingly disallows both things.
Time flies like the wind,
and fruit flies like a banana.

User Info: Dagorha

Dagorha
3 months ago#6
Or infinite regress is fine
Songs that the Hyades shall sing, Where flap the tatters of the King,
Must die unheard in Dim Carcosa.

User Info: OrangeWizard

OrangeWizard
3 months ago#7
Is it illogical, to say that God has always existed? At first glance, I wouldn't think so, but I could be wrong. Or is it that "If God always existed, then why couldn't the universe have always existed?"

User Info: Dagorha

Dagorha
3 months ago#8
OrangeWizard posted...
Is it illogical, to say that God has always existed? At first glance, I wouldn't think so, but I could be wrong. Or is it that "If God always existed, then why couldn't the universe have always existed?"


Logic isn't quite what you think it is. Not in the formal sense anyway. The question I think you want to ask is "Can 'God always existed' be logically valid?"

To which, I would say yes. Something always existing doesn't break any rules or axioms of logic. But, since validity is relatively easy compared to how "Sound" or true an argument is, I'm not sure it really matters.

When it comes to logic, you only have a couple options

-Axioms - There exists some self-evidential truths that you can prove all things with [but good luck finding them]

- Infinite Regress - Truth always hinges on something, and that something hinges on another independent thing ad infinitum. [But is that even possible?]

- Circular - All truths hinge on other truths that may or may not be contingent on truths you are already trying to prove [But if this is true, how will you ever be able to tell what is true?]

Without breaking down things further, that is the gist
Songs that the Hyades shall sing, Where flap the tatters of the King,
Must die unheard in Dim Carcosa.

User Info: OrangeWizard

OrangeWizard
3 months ago#9
Dagorha posted...

"Can 'God always existed' be logically valid?"

To which, I would say yes. Something always existing doesn't break any rules or axioms of logic. But, since validity is relatively easy compared to how "Sound" or true an argument is, I'm not sure it really matters.


Okay, good. Then, my next question: If it's valid to say that God always existed, then from whence cometh the special pleading?

User Info: Dagorha

Dagorha
3 months ago#10
OrangeWizard posted...
Dagorha posted...

"Can 'God always existed' be logically valid?"

To which, I would say yes. Something always existing doesn't break any rules or axioms of logic. But, since validity is relatively easy compared to how "Sound" or true an argument is, I'm not sure it really matters.


Okay, good. Then, my next question: If it's valid to say that God always existed, then from whence cometh the special pleading?


Beats me, I'm not sure what the TC said makes a lot of sense
Songs that the Hyades shall sing, Where flap the tatters of the King,
Must die unheard in Dim Carcosa.
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