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User Info: OrangeWizard

OrangeWizard
4 months ago#21
dhalsimrocks posted...
Yes, of course by my standard. I am not questioning God, I'm questioning the Christian concept of God. I don't believe God exists, and partly because I find standards like these appalling, and consider it evidence that this particular version of the Christian God is a human creation.


We're still talking about giving salvation to those who turn their lives around later in life, right? What do you find appalling about this?

dhalsimrocks posted...
It would be contemptible if this were how things worked. I'm glad that it's not.


Frodobaggins is probably the only person on this board who thinks that this is how things work. There are probably several Christians here instead, that don't hold this view. Don't throw out the baby with the bath water. That is to say, don't judge Christianity by the worst interpretation of it. There are different sects with different beliefs.
(edited 4 months ago)

User Info: dhalsimrocks

dhalsimrocks
4 months ago#22
OrangeWizard posted...

We're still talking about giving salvation to those who turn their lives around later in life, right? What do you find appalling about this?

That it has less to do with turning someone's life around and more with passing the theology test. In particular the fact that the one who didn't really need to turn their life around is still screwed because they didn't get the theology question right. Maybe they sincerely believed in a god and tried to live up to a high standard, but if they fill in the circle next to "Hindu", they're a goner. It's a loophole for the worst of humanity to get out of jail free.


Frodobaggins is probably the only person on this board who thinks that this is how things work. There are probably several Christians here instead, that don't hold this view. Don't throw out the baby with the bath water. That is to say, don't judge Christianity by the worst interpretation of it. There are different sects with different beliefs.

Oh, I understand that not all Christians believe that way and your version isn't really what I'm talking about. I don't think I've heard a model of salvation that I didn't think had some sort of problem, but soteriology is only one (and a minor one, I suppose) of the reasons I concluded that the baby in the bathwater was a man made doll.
May all your disgraces be private

User Info: darkmaian23

darkmaian23
4 months ago#23
@OrangeWizard
If I may jump in here, what is the JW answer to the situation dhalsimrocks posted? Do both get into heaven? I have always found the concept of forgiveness of any sinner who repents to be a beautiful aspect of Christian theology. The fate of those who believed the wrong thing or were turned away from Christianity by the actions of others casts a shadow on that. For me at at least.

@dhalsimrocks
Regarding the hypothetical about the abusive priest, do disagree completely with the redemption of such an individual? Or do you think that the system is unfair specifically because belief in Jesus is the thing that saves him?

User Info: dhalsimrocks

dhalsimrocks
4 months ago#24
darkmaian23 posted...

Regarding the hypothetical about the abusive priest, do disagree completely with the redemption of such an individual? Or do you think that the system is unfair specifically because belief in Jesus is the thing that saves him?

I think the belief requirement is probably the biggest problem I have (oops, you relied on Osiris for your salvation, sorry), although I have to admit that in thinking more about it, I feel like true redemption of someone like an abusive clergy member should require more than just feeling bad for it and belief in Jesus.

The Zoroastrians believe that if you live a life of virtue you get to go on to paradise. If you don't, you will go to the Zoroastrian Hell, but you don't stay there. Your time there is proportional to your evil deeds in life. After that time of purification you can go on to paradise.

Even that seems more reasonable to me, or even some of the reincarnation ideas.

In the end I think most of the Christian ideas of salvation are just too simplistic and, well, human. I think the whole idea of punishment (especially in an afterlife) is just a form of vengeance and thus, useless.
May all your disgraces be private

User Info: OrangeWizard

OrangeWizard
4 months ago#25
darkmaian23 posted...
If I may jump in here, what is the JW answer to the situation dhalsimrocks posted? Do both get into heaven? I have always found the concept of forgiveness of any sinner who repents to be a beautiful aspect of Christian theology. The fate of those who believed the wrong thing or were turned away from Christianity by the actions of others casts a shadow on that. For me at at least.


Our view is that mere belief is not a guarantee of salvation. There is no "loophole" to exploit. God will act according to justice tempered by mercy, so probably only the boy will be resurrected, as Acts 24:15 says that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous. Those who lived and died in ignorance of God's will would probably be brought back.

Also, we believe that there is no hell
#26
(message deleted)
GMFrq posted...
Bob the Almighty posted...
That’s why it has to be by grace, through faith. Without faith it is impossible to please God

https://www.philmorgan.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/ALLofGRACE.pdf


Dude I love Charles Spurgeon. Thanks for that link. I’ll read through it when I get some free time.

[Edit] Man just skimming up to page 9 (out of 95) and there’s just so much good theology backed up by cold, hard Scriptural fact lol. Spurgeon is one of my favorite theologians. I have been planning on buying this study Bible for a while now. It’s actually the next up on my list to purchase haha.
The villagers called him 'God's Savior' and his weapon they called 'Vampire Killer.'
Ah, Gandolfi, how that would make you smile.
(edited 4 months ago)

User Info: iwasapoetonce

iwasapoetonce
4 months ago#28
OrangeWizard posted...
Also, we believe that there is no hell


What is the alternative to heaven then?
I need a bit of help lads with some rushes ya know like helix rush n tech spam, do you lot know anymore?/v316/samuraifaith/mad.jpg
Man reading that link above on page 33:

Charles Spurgeon

ITHINK IT WELL to turn a little to one side that I may ask my reader to observe adoringly the fountain-head of our salvation, which is the grace of God. "By grace are ye saved." Because God is gracious, therefore sinful men are forgiven, converted, purified, and saved. It is not because of anything in them, or that ever can be in them, that they are saved; but because of the boundless love, goodness, pity, compassion, mercy, and grace of God. Tarry a moment, then, at the well-head. Behold the pure river of water of life, as it proceeds out of the throne of God and of the Lamb!

What an abyss is the grace of God! Who can measure its breadth? Who can fathom its depth? Like all the rest of the divine attributes, it is infinite. God is full of love, for "God is love." God is full of goodness; the very name "God" is short for "good." Unbounded goodness and love enter into the very essence of the Godhead. It is because "his mercy endureth for ever" that men are not destroyed; because "his compassions fail not" that sinners are brought to Him and forgiven.


The man has a way with words. His writings always made my spirit feel alive lol.

What an awesome blessing for the day. Thanks to the original poster for sharing.
The villagers called him 'God's Savior' and his weapon they called 'Vampire Killer.'
Ah, Gandolfi, how that would make you smile.

User Info: OrangeWizard

OrangeWizard
4 months ago#30
Bob the Almighty posted...
the very name "God" is short for "good."


Is it really?

Is "ant" short for "anteater"?
Is "cat" short for "catastrophe"?
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