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  3. Isn't God the villain of the bible?

User Info: Janitor

Janitor
1 month ago#1
Right there in Genesis he's deliberately keeping us in ignorance and mortality, he kills nearly the entire population of the world in the flood story, in the wife/sister narratives he repeatedly punishes people for having been deceived into unknowingly sinning, he kills the innocent children of Egypt, he oversees a brutal bloodbath in Judges, he repeatedly demands human sacrifice including forcing Jephthah to sacrifice his own daughter, he rains fire and brimstone on cities as punishment for being inhospitable, he oversees the torture of Job, he admits to having created evil....

Honestly, the strongest evidence I can really think of for God being the good guy is that everyone says he's the good guy.
Member of SEM

User Info: dhalsimrocks

dhalsimrocks
1 month ago#2
Janitor posted...
Right there in Genesis he's deliberately keeping us in ignorance and mortality, he kills nearly the entire population of the world in the flood story, in the wife/sister narratives he repeatedly punishes people for having been deceived into unknowingly sinning, he kills the innocent children of Egypt, he oversees a brutal bloodbath in Judges, he repeatedly demands human sacrifice including forcing Jephthah to sacrifice his own daughter, he rains fire and brimstone on cities as punishment for being inhospitable, he oversees the torture of Job, he admits to having created evil....

Honestly, the strongest evidence I can really think of for God being the good guy is that everyone says he's the good guy.

Just about any Christian or Jew will have en explanation for all of that, and I'm sure you'll get a few here.

But I just want to point out that there was an entire branch of Christianity that centered around the idea that the Hebrew God wasn't so much evil or a villain, but simply a brutal dictator.

The Marcionites believed that YHWH was a real god. The Jews made a legitimate covenant with him, and they are welcome to keep this arrangement, but this covenant is strict, the laws are harsh and the punishments brutal. But they believed there was a higher god. A hitherto unknown god called "The Father", that nobody else knew about until Jesus appeared. The true "gospel" and salvation is that you no longer have to abide by YHWH's strict rules, and can receive salvation from the kind, loving "Father". The Torah is no longer necessary, and salvations is through faith in Christ alone.
May all your disgraces be private

User Info: Janitor

Janitor
1 month ago#3
Sounds a bit like Gnosticism, and it does make sense to me. The Gospels present a very different message from the Old Testament.
Member of SEM

User Info: GnosticBishop

GnosticBishop
1 month ago#4
dhalsimrocks posted...
Janitor posted...
Right there in Genesis he's deliberately keeping us in ignorance and mortality, he kills nearly the entire population of the world in the flood story, in the wife/sister narratives he repeatedly punishes people for having been deceived into unknowingly sinning, he kills the innocent children of Egypt, he oversees a brutal bloodbath in Judges, he repeatedly demands human sacrifice including forcing Jephthah to sacrifice his own daughter, he rains fire and brimstone on cities as punishment for being inhospitable, he oversees the torture of Job, he admits to having created evil....

Honestly, the strongest evidence I can really think of for God being the good guy is that everyone says he's the good guy.

Just about any Christian or Jew will have en explanation for all of that, and I'm sure you'll get a few here.

But I just want to point out that there was an entire branch of Christianity that centered around the idea that the Hebrew God wasn't so much evil or a villain, but simply a brutal dictator.

The Marcionites believed that YHWH was a real god. The Jews made a legitimate covenant with him, and they are welcome to keep this arrangement, but this covenant is strict, the laws are harsh and the punishments brutal. But they believed there was a higher god. A hitherto unknown god called "The Father", that nobody else knew about until Jesus appeared. The true "gospel" and salvation is that you no longer have to abide by YHWH's strict rules, and can receive salvation from the kind, loving "Father". The Torah is no longer necessary, and salvations is through faith in Christ alone.


While Jesus said that faith alone was worthless and that he would know his people by their works and deeds. Faith alone makes no sense as that can be seen as a work.

Gnostic Christians as far as I know never believed in the supernatural. If we would have, I doubt that we would have called Yahweh a vile demiurge the way we do.

Regards
DL

User Info: GnosticBishop

GnosticBishop
1 month ago#5
Janitor posted...
Right there in Genesis he's deliberately keeping us in ignorance and mortality, he kills nearly the entire population of the world in the flood story, in the wife/sister narratives he repeatedly punishes people for having been deceived into unknowingly sinning, he kills the innocent children of Egypt, he oversees a brutal bloodbath in Judges, he repeatedly demands human sacrifice including forcing Jephthah to sacrifice his own daughter, he rains fire and brimstone on cities as punishment for being inhospitable, he oversees the torture of Job, he admits to having created evil....

Honestly, the strongest evidence I can really think of for God being the good guy is that everyone says he's the good guy.


I just picked this up.

I am not sure if I will keep or use it much as I do not like to get into stupid Satanism, but he does have some decent things to say.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNcRXeCzpno

As to Gnostic Christians, we see Jesus as a myth and have to see his father the same way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR02ciandvg&feature=BFa&list=PLCBF574D

Regards
DL

User Info: dhalsimrocks

dhalsimrocks
1 month ago#6
Janitor posted...
Sounds a bit like Gnosticism, and it does make sense to me. The Gospels present a very different message from the Old Testament.

Marcionism is often categorized with Gnosticism, and while it does have some similarities there are some big differences too. I would also argue that Marcionism was born out of Pauline Gnosticism, so it's really sort of an evolution.

GnosticBishop posted...

While Jesus said that faith alone was worthless and that he would know his people by their works and deeds. Faith alone makes no sense as that can be seen as a work.

Gnostic Christians as far as I know never believed in the supernatural. If we would have, I doubt that we would have called Yahweh a vile demiurge the way we do.

Ancient Gnostics definitely believed in supernatural entities and events. It would seem that some Gnostics were docetists, believing Jesus to be a non-corporeal entity, like a phantom or astral projection, because it was impossible for him to be divine and have a fleshly body.
May all your disgraces be private

User Info: Hustle Kong

Hustle Kong
1 month ago#7
No.
Shooting Game never die.
It prays that the clover of luck be always in your mind.

User Info: Janitor

Janitor
1 month ago#8
GnosticBishop posted...
I just picked this up.

Thanks for sharing. I actually came up with a lot of that independently last night. When he talks about an alien coming to Earth with no knowledge of God, and reading the Bible, that's the idea I had last night. I was thinking what would happen if I read these stories without the preconception of God as the good guy, and this is where I ended up.

GnosticBishop posted...
I am not sure if I will keep or use it much as I do not like to get into stupid Satanism, but he does have some decent things to say.

Interested in your thoughts on Satanism. As part of my thought experiment, I looked at mentions of Satan in the Bible, and he comes across as a much better person than God, in my humble opinion.

As I understand it, most Satanists are Atheists who like the idea of Satan as a metaphor for rebellion against an evil religion, and I agree with that.

I've been reading about Satanism today, and I don't entirely agree with it. I actually think a lot of the stuff in the Bible is good, like the Sermon on the Mount, James, and Ecclesiastes. I disagree with Satanism's view that revenge is a good thing, and I disagree with its Epicurianism. I also disagree with how Satanists always seem to present themselves as being as offensive to Christian Values as possible. But there's a lot that I do agree with in this philosophy as well.
Member of SEM

User Info: OrangeWizard

OrangeWizard
1 month ago#9
I'll just point out the things that are demonstrably wrong, as opposed to things that are just a matter of opinion or interpretation:

Janitor posted...
Right there in Genesis he's deliberately keeping us... mortality


Adam and Eve would have been immortal, had they not eaten from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Bad. It's not true that they were "kept in mortality".

he repeatedly demands human sacrifice


The God of the bible has never demanded human sacrifice. In fact, he explicitly forbids it. Deuteronomy 19:9,10 says "...you must not learn to imitate the detestable practices of those nations. There should not be found in you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire".

"pass through the fire" means to be sacrificed.

User Info: TyVulpine

TyVulpine
1 month ago#10
Janitor posted...
Right there in Genesis he's deliberately keeping us in ignorance and mortality, he kills nearly the entire population of the world in the flood story, in the wife/sister narratives he repeatedly punishes people for having been deceived into unknowingly sinning, he kills the innocent children of Egypt, he oversees a brutal bloodbath in Judges, he repeatedly demands human sacrifice including forcing Jephthah to sacrifice his own daughter, he rains fire and brimstone on cities as punishment for being inhospitable, he oversees the torture of Job, he admits to having created evil....

Honestly, the strongest evidence I can really think of for God being the good guy is that everyone says he's the good guy.

He did create Satan too, and being omniscient, would have known Satan would turn against him. So yes, God created evil.
Fall down, go boom...
Life is like a box of chocolates. Most of it is crap.
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