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Some times I am reminded of just how much doubt is integral to me.

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User Info: YHWH_Saves

YHWH_Saves
4 months ago#11
SockThief posted...
the final bahamut posted...
The mere revelation that maybe the biblical flood story was ripped off a different religion's flood story was apparently so much that a lot of people couldn't deal with it.


That's quite an overreaction to a maybe, especially since if the Biblical account of the flood is true, there shouldn't be any surprise to other cultures having written records of it prior to Moses writing the book of Genesis hundreds of years later. The flood would have happened around 2500 BC, while Moses wasn't alive until 1400 BC (I'm using rounded dates). Why would someone expect no other culture to have written about the destruction of the world during that 1100-year period? It seems silly to go insane over that.

I agree with this wholeheartedly.

I remember being exposed to Enuma Elish, what some deem the oldest "creation" story, coming from Sumeria, and having a tinge of "doubt" enter into my mind. Not because any of the contents of the reading, but because it is a fearful thing to have one's foundation challenged, as this usually suggests that we need to work to reconcile/change (which is something lots of us are put off by). And we humans love certitude.

However, I always remember the words of Jesus, when He described the importance of building one's house atop the rocks and not the sand. While I think there is an apologetic reason behind the shared themes behind some of these stories, I came to realize that my faith is actually founded on the truth, most accurately and fully represented in Christ Jesus - not the miracles, the stories, or the events.

This first occurred to me once I found myself quickly skimming over the fish/loaves stories, Matthew's virigin birth and the healing of the sick in order to get to the "good stuff," the words of Jesus. It was a liberating epiphany.

On the subject at hand, I think the wide attestation of various flood myths can be interpreted to mean that these folk were ripping each other off, but that a more probably view is that they're all drawing from the same source.

The problem with these sorts of dilemmas is that we're condensing THOUSANDS OF YEARS (which seems small only because we're used to millions and billions) into a few pages. It is absurd to assume that the ancients would NOT have had different spins on the same stories, or that there'd be many catastrophes upon which to build myth. It is naive to assume that anyone ripped off anyone else, in my opinion, given that we're dealing with such a large span of time (and little supporting texts).
"Man will not live off of bread alone, but by every word proceeding through the mouth of God." "You are not able to serve God and wealth.".
the final bahamut 4 months ago#12
kozlo100 posted...
I can't imagine what beliefs I hold that seeing them in doubt would literally make me take my clothes off. Though I guess you wouldn't really know until it happens.

I kind of wish I had some. That seems like such a unique and interesting experience to have your world so turned upside down that your brain just stops working for a little while. That kind of random output seems fascinating.


I agree wholeheartedly. I think it's part of why I am endlessly fascinated and disappointed by lovevcraft is that I want to be in that mindset. I want to be driven mad by the truth, I want to be In the place where I can sit about chatting feverishly into the wee hours. But even with something that interests me deeply like bionics, where actual miracles are being performed these days and previously established boundaries are being royally f***ed in amazing new ways, I'm still maintaining a healthy bit of scepticism. I mean sure I want to believe... But I don't.

Dagorha posted...


Since I tend to read a lot of Lovecraft I tend to find myself asking the question of what sort of revelation would it take to drive me literally insane. Something akin to Stephen King's Revival would probably do it but not much else I can imagine.

I think ultimately it depends on how any piece of writing can effect and challenge a fundamental belief within you


I don't think it's necessarily writing as much as it's things.
I mean, imagine that the next time you looked in a mirror in your home, as you turned out the light, you saw that it was actually a two way mirror and two people were standing on the other side, taking notes. George Smith had a mirror moment when he read the flood story on a piece of rock older than the Christian world.
"The US military is not an effective proxy for humanity" ~ Folding Ideas
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User Info: Dagorha

Dagorha
4 months ago#13
I don't think it's necessarily writing as much as it's things.
I mean, imagine that the next time you looked in a mirror in your home, as you turned out the light, you saw that it was actually a two way mirror and two people were standing on the other side, taking notes. George Smith had a mirror moment when he read the flood story on a piece of rock older than the Christian world.


True, although with that example I think i'd be more confused, angry then scared. It wouldn't blow my mind as much as it would creep me out. What about you TFB? Can you think of anything that would totally throw your world completely out of wack? Similar to what Kozlo said, i imagine the things that would truly break my mind aren't even known to me.
Songs that the Hyades shall sing, Where flap the tatters of the King,
Must die unheard in Dim Carcosa.
the final bahamut 4 months ago#14
Dagorha posted...
I don't think it's necessarily writing as much as it's things.
I mean, imagine that the next time you looked in a mirror in your home, as you turned out the light, you saw that it was actually a two way mirror and two people were standing on the other side, taking notes. George Smith had a mirror moment when he read the flood story on a piece of rock older than the Christian world.


True, although with that example I think i'd be more confused, angry then scared. It wouldn't blow my mind as much as it would creep me out. What about you TFB? Can you think of anything that would totally throw your world completely out of wack? Similar to what Kozlo said, i imagine the things that would truly break my mind aren't even known to me.


Yeah, I think so too. I mean, presumably my mind would be blown by finding out that I was in a Truman show situation, but honestly I think it'd be more being creeped out that other people actually were watching me at my most private moments and being simultaneously disappointed and impressed with everyone I know.
"The US military is not an effective proxy for humanity" ~ Folding Ideas
Faciendere id pro RAVz

User Info: kts123

kts123
4 months ago#15
the final bahamut posted...
Dagorha posted...
I don't think it's necessarily writing as much as it's things.
I mean, imagine that the next time you looked in a mirror in your home, as you turned out the light, you saw that it was actually a two way mirror and two people were standing on the other side, taking notes. George Smith had a mirror moment when he read the flood story on a piece of rock older than the Christian world.


True, although with that example I think i'd be more confused, angry then scared. It wouldn't blow my mind as much as it would creep me out. What about you TFB? Can you think of anything that would totally throw your world completely out of wack? Similar to what Kozlo said, i imagine the things that would truly break my mind aren't even known to me.


Yeah, I think so too. I mean, presumably my mind would be blown by finding out that I was in a Truman show situation, but honestly I think it'd be more being creeped out that other people actually were watching me at my most private moments and being simultaneously disappointed and impressed with everyone I know.


Nobody tell him what social media is or he'll figure it out!

>.>;
roomofpictures.com
the final bahamut 4 months ago#16
kts123 posted...
the final bahamut posted...
Dagorha posted...
I don't think it's necessarily writing as much as it's things.
I mean, imagine that the next time you looked in a mirror in your home, as you turned out the light, you saw that it was actually a two way mirror and two people were standing on the other side, taking notes. George Smith had a mirror moment when he read the flood story on a piece of rock older than the Christian world.


True, although with that example I think i'd be more confused, angry then scared. It wouldn't blow my mind as much as it would creep me out. What about you TFB? Can you think of anything that would totally throw your world completely out of wack? Similar to what Kozlo said, i imagine the things that would truly break my mind aren't even known to me.


Yeah, I think so too. I mean, presumably my mind would be blown by finding out that I was in a Truman show situation, but honestly I think it'd be more being creeped out that other people actually were watching me at my most private moments and being simultaneously disappointed and impressed with everyone I know.


Nobody tell him what social media is or he'll figure it out!

>.>;


Social media is different because everything you put out there can be curated. I mean, sure you COULD just cut off your frontal lobe and post directly from your brain to Facebook and twitter, uncritically gram your every moment of joy and defeat completely #unfiltered, but that's kind of... Dumb. People who aren't just fundamentally failing at social media do some level of self-editing, as in most public displays.

The second part of that quote. The impressed bit was being impressed with everyone keeping such a massive conspiracy secret, the second but was disappointed in them lying to me about something like that. None of that is really relevant to social media.
"The US military is not an effective proxy for humanity" ~ Folding Ideas
Faciendere id pro RAVz

User Info: kozlo100

kozlo100
4 months ago#17
the final bahamut posted...
Yeah, I think so too. I mean, presumably my mind would be blown by finding out that I was in a Truman show situation, but honestly I think it'd be more being creeped out that other people actually were watching me at my most private moments and being simultaneously disappointed and impressed with everyone I know.


I was just this morning pondering whether or not finding out I was living in a Matrix-like simulation would do it, but it doesn't seem like it would. Like you say, more creepy than mind-breaking. Over the past couple of days I've been trying to think which of my beliefs would make me go insane, temporarily or otherwise, but I just can't come up with one.
Time flies like the wind,
and fruit flies like a banana.

User Info: simondrake

simondrake
3 months ago#18
Wow that's a cool story, I didn't know about that.
It's interesting that even after his shock and meltdown he still made a public announcement even knowing the uproar it would cause. It reminds me of the 1998 discovery that the expansion of the universe is speeding up instead of slowing down - it showed the core of our understandings about gravity and the expansion of the universe were wrong but it's what the data shows so lets start discussing it to find out why.

Your question "...believing in something so whole heartedly that one would have a reaction like that..." is also interesting. That's a very strong reaction so yeah it is difficult to imagine yourself in that role and it may be that his thought processes were significantly different to that of today. I'd like to bring up something I think goes some way to explaining why.

We all know the story of the 'heresy' of the heliocentric model of the solar system, but that's just one of a myriad of scientific discoveries that caused uproar in the christian church.
When galvani first applied electrodes to the legs of dead frogs to make them twitch this was seen as trying to recreate the divine spark of life.
The discovery of static electricity and magnetism was treated as a parlor trick for a long time but the suggestion that electromagentism could create sparks that were the same 'substance' as a bolt of lightning was heresy. God creates lightning, man cannot create something that is the same as that.
Using a pinhole camera it was possible to observe dark blobs on the surface of the sun that over time slid across the surface to disappear then reappear a short time later. Therefore the sun is a rotating sphere with dark dots we now call sunspots on it. Nope, that's heresy - the sun is made by god as a perfect circle of light with no darkness.

On and on the list goes of examples of discoveries that were once seen as blasphemous but now are just accepted as scientific fact. Maybe one day evolution/common decent will be accepted without question.

This is a different spin on 'God Of The Gaps' and I'm not saying these things as evidence for or against the existence of God but in the 1850s there were a lot more and larger 'gaps' so God was everywhere and everything was God, Genesis was literally true and there's no geological evidence to say otherwise. So finding out the flood story was plagiarism would have been quite shocking.

It reminds me of a scene in Red Dwarf when they announce discovering a lost page from the beginning of the Bible that reads: "To my darling Mindy, all characters portrayed in this story are fictional and any relation to real persons living or dead is purely coincidental.", the page has been authenticated as genuine and religious leaders around the world are now unsure what to do next.
To strive, to seek, to find. And not to yield.

User Info: Stonedwolfed

Stonedwolfed
3 months ago#19
Doubt it the seed of reason trying to germinate.
Understanding the rationality of SJWs is like trying to smell the colour 9.
Locating the humanity of neo-Nazis is like finding the Unicorns' Graveyard.
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